1) Sundown is already planned. We’ll see if it gets built after all the CLD-260s get replaced.
2) I remember hearing speculation about a Mongolia lift, but I think that was just a suggestion and not an idea from Vail.
3) While a lift serving Riva Ridge would be nice, I don’t feel that it would be particularly useful. The only repeat terrain that it would serve would be two long and steep bump runs. Removing the second section of Riva Bahn would seriously damage circulation, as now, instead of taking Riva to Northwoods, you’d also have to take Highline if you wanted to access Patrol HQ.
4) I think that a Minie’s replacement should follow the original lift line, instead of veering of to the top of Avanti. The fall line would be too weird.
Personally, If I were to have free reign over the front side’s lifts, I’d build an express quad to the top of Golden Peak, and then replace Riva Bahn with a gondola. I’d then try to find a way to squeeze in a Giant Steps replacement, and then maybe a Minie’s replacement with a mid-station.
1) Sundown Express is a great idea, especially given the High Noon line fiasco last winter. Personally, I would put the bottom terminal at the bottom of the bowl and not all the way down Sundown Catwalk, just to reduce crowding on that trail. However, Vail agrees with you and has this lift in their master plan.
2) Mongolia Express is another good idea that Vail has in its master plan. They will also cut East Pete’s Bowl to make it accessible from Pete’s Express.
3) I like this idea a lot, although I would probably extend the top terminal all the way to Buffalo’s at the top, just to more easily allow people to get to the Back Bowls.
4) Not too sure about this one. It would be weird to lap because Ledges/Old 9/Minnie’s are diamonds but the terrain above them is all easier, it wouldn’t provide back bowl access… it seems as though it is a less useful Avanti to be quite honest.
Something that I think would be useful that is not mentioned would be a high-speed quad out of Vail Village up Lindsey’s or Giant Steps right above Avanti to relieve Gondola One in the morning and post-lunch rush hours.
I like your idea for the east highline chair. But if go one step further. I would build a lift from the bottom of East high line to the top of Mongolia.
Sundown Express and Game Creek Six: Good ideas that will be getting built next summer.
East Highline Express and Riva Ridge Express: Great ideas that would just require a couple infill trails.
West Wall Ropetow: This would definitely be useful for accessing Two Elk Lodge.
Game Creek II: I am not sure how necessary this is with the new six-pack being installed.
Giant Steps Express: I think this ends way too far up without reason, as it lacks access to anything except Avanti and the terrain is basically split in two at the base of Avanti. With that in mind, I would end it right above Avanti to make it easy to lap Giant Steps/Lindsey’s and still provide Avanti access.
Minnie’s Express: I like it, but I would not end it quite as far down. Perhaps at the intersection of Born Free and the Vail Village Catwalk.
Mongolia Express: Good idea, but I would end it higher up the mountain towards the peak, as the platter is a bit of an arbitrary reference point. Vail has a similar idea in their master plan.
Siberia Express: I do not think this is really necessary if Orient Express is upgraded, which will likely happen soon given its age.
Belle’s Express: Skyline Express does not get the traffic where I would say it is necessary, but the same could be said for Earl’s Express, which is very similar to this proposed lift, so perhaps it could be built.
I think Vail needs to replace Born Free HSQ with a 6/10 Chondola and extend it up to Eagles Nest. This would relieve pressure off of Eagle Bahn in the morning while still maintaining the ease of a chair for multiple laps.
Surprisingly, they don’t seem to be planning category upgrades for most of their old detachables, but replacement. Here’s a breakdown of the plan:
Upgrades/Replacements:
#3 Wildwood Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to be reduced from 2,800pp/h to 2,400.
#6 Riva Bahn Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to remain at 2,800.
#7 Game Creek Express (D4C) – Upgrade to D6C, capacity to increase from 2800 to 3,200.
#8 Born Free Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to remain at 2,800.
#20 Cascade Village (4C) – Upgrade to D4C, capacity to remain at 1,800.
#21 Orient Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to increase from 2,400 to 2,800.
#22 Mongolia Platter (1S) – May be replaced before Mongolia Express (#40) is built, with capacity to be 503. Regardless of replacement, will be removed after the completion of Mongolia Express.
#26 Pride Express (D4C) – Removal so that the liftline can be used by the second stage of the planed Ever Vail (AKA West Lionshead) Gondola (D8G), if the two-stage alternative is chosen. Will otherwise be replaced with a D4C, with capacity reduced from 2,800 to 2,400.
New Lifts:
#26 Ever Vail Gondola ((i) D8G or (ii) D4C) – Will run from new base area between Cascade Village and Lionshead to either (i) a midstation at the current bottom of Pride Express, with a second stage running to the top of Pride Express, or (ii) a spot on Post Road trail located between its junctions with Simba and Safari. Vertical rise for plan (i) will be 2,232′ and slope length 9,121′, with capacity at 2,400 for both plans (i) and (ii).
#40 Mongolia Express (D4C) – Will run from the bottom of Siberia Bowl to a spot 650′ down the ridge from the summit of East Vail Chutes. Vertical rise will be 1,575′ and slope length 5,786′ with a capacity at 2,400.
#41 Sundown Express (D4C) – Will run from the bottom of High Noon Express to the top of Game Creek Express. Vertical rise will be 1,608′ and slope length 6,177′, with capacity at 2,400.
#42 Golden Peak Surface Lift (1S) – Will run from the Golden Peak Race Traverse (at the top of the Golden Peak Terrain Park) to the lowest summit of Golden Peak. Vertical rise will be 678′ and slope length 2,001′, with capacity at 1,400.
I’m not sure why so many lifts are receiving replacements instead of upgrades. Vail might believe that they’ll have reached their largest market possible after the next four new lifts.
Not sure why it makes sense to replace any of the detachables with tire driven terminals unless the capacity needs to be increased. With chain drive detachables it’s a different story as they get significantly less reliable as they age. Big Sky refurbished and relocated the old Ramcharger lift to Shedhorn which is older than all the Garaventa-CTEC high speed quads at Vail. Meanwhile, Vail scrapped Montezuma which could’ve received the same refurbishment and then been reinstalled.
On the Orient Express and Born Free Express, I can see them just replacing the terminals and grips and leaving everything else, like Mount Bachelor did with Pine Marten in 2006.
With Pine Marten, all Mount Bachelor did was replace the CLD-260 terminals with UNI-GS terminals, and the DS-104 grips replaced with DT-104 grips. Everything else was kept untouched, even the towers. Doppelmayr could do this to the CLD-260s that Vail needs to upgrade but doesn’t want to change to six packs, albeit with the newer AG grips that the Mountaintop Express and Avanti Express utilize.
Are there any CTEC terminals outside of the five that exist at Vail/Beaver Creek? They might be looking to replace some or all of those due to a shortness of parts. Also – Montezuma wasn’t completely scrapped; its chairs and tower heads were used for Red Buffalo at Beaver Creek. They got rid of the terminals (which, while usable, were still old) and the towers (which I don’t think fit the lift profile). What’s really disappointed me is that they’re not replacing Riva Bahn with a gondola, and that they’re not replacing Orient with a six-pack, though they may have figured that Mongolia will help to relieve some of the burden on Orient.
I believe the CTEC terminals at Vail/Beaver Creek are the same Stealth 1/2 (depending on the year) terminals but with a custom enclosure to match the CLD-260 detachables they already had. I hope they will upgrade Orient to a 6 pack as it seems the Mongolia Express is a ways off. I think replacing the remaining CLD-260’s should be the top priority followed by the expansion lifts. Then start replacing the Garaventa-CTEC high speed quads which will likely be over 30 years old by then.
Outside of Vail itself, the only CLD-260’s remaining in the company are Arrow Bahn at Beaver Creek, Comet at Heavenly, and 7th Heaven at Whistler Blackcomb. I think 7th Heaven will be replaced soon, but the others will stick around longer.
Machinery-wise, there are a fair amount of the Garaventa/CTEC terminals with AK grips in Utah, two in Washington, one at Steamboat, and several in the east. The issue isn’t getting parts. My guess is, like other older lifts, they’re just getting costly to maintain.
Ever Vail appears to be dead in the water, there’s been no public activity on it for years and most of the permits expire at the end of next year unless certain development deadlines (the largest being moving South Frontage Road and the resort’s shopyard) are met. Vail Resorts has pretty much gotten out of property development by now in any case.
I’ll be all for a Giant Steps replacement, where the lift starts in Vail Village and ends at the top of Minnie’s, which could shift some traffic away from Mid-Vail.
I’d also be for cutting additional trails in the area off the Highline Express between Roger’s Run and Flap Jack.
That terrain between Roger’s Run and Flap jack drains into Hairbag Alley is actually quite steap, almost chute-like steep in some sections. Because of this, it doesn’t hold snow well in some areas and has a lot of rocks and stumps. I think it would be difficult to open up as skiable terrain for the public.
It doesn’t make much sense to build a new Orient as a 2,800 pph quad given that resorts these days would rather go for a 6 pack with a 3,000 pph capacity.
It can relatively safely be assumed that all of the quads at Vail will be replaced by six-packs when their time is up. Capacity will likely vary based on actual need. The same goes for Born Free, Riva Bahn, and Wildwood.
I had a question, I saw this image online about the CWA conus cabins, but the cabin has the vail logo and says lionshead. Were these cabins on a gondola at vail at some point?
Can’t get any pics of golden peak t bar. They are only currently letting the race team use it.
In other news. I think Wildwood and Northwoods are going to open tomorrow. I think they finished inspecting Wildwood today. Not sure about Northwoods though.
Pretty disappointed that Vail didn’t go with making an all-new map, preferably by James Niehues, to incorporate the Golden Peak T-Bar, instead using the existing VistaMap and modifying it just slightly. It’s noticeable that they’ve also retweaked other parts of the map, with the Avanti Express lift being realigned and Game Creek Bowl now being an insert with its own separate map. I guess this was done to make it because they’d had enough of having to put a disclaimer on Game Creek Bowl to remind people that the Game Creek Express is the only means of egress from the bowl.
Honestly, the perspective of the map is a little off. Because this map makes the Game Creek Express look like it ends closer to Wildwood than the lift actually ends.
Also, Game Trail doesn’t have such a direct route to the lift from Eagle’s Nest. It actually crosses Ouzo and ends around where Faro feeds into Showboat.
They may have been (or still are) carpets. I haven’t visited my counterparts across the pass in a couple of years but I know they have a few, and they most likely are numbered as well for internal identification.
A lot of the historical data from the 1960’s and early 70’s is incorrect and i can clear most of it up.
*Gondola one, lift 4 and lift 5 were the original lifts that opened in 1962. The stats for gondola one are incorrectly listed on lift 19. The stats for lifts 4 and 5 are likely lost to history and values listed belong to other lifts (see below).
*Lifts 1-6 were all in place by 67. The stats you have for lift 4 belong to 1. Lift 6 and 3 stats look right. The stats for lift 5 seem to match lift 2 roughly but I think have some typos. The original lift 2 was shorter than the current but not that much.
*7 and 19 were added in 69. The real stats for lift 19 from the lift survey of that year: Lionshead Gondola (6) Bell N/A 9300 2200 1100 690
*Lifts 8 and 9 were added in 72 but the stats need to be flipped. Confusingly the current lift 8 is longer than the original and the original lift 9 was longer when first installed than it was in later years.
From there on, the data looks accurate.
“Confusingly the current lift 8 is longer than the original and the original lift 9 was longer when first installed than it was in later years.”
Not really confusing. As built, the original Born Free double only ran up to Post Road, which is at tower 17 on the current Born Free Express lift. From there, if you wanted to get to Eagle’s Nest, you then skied a short ways down Born Free to the Minnie’s lift, which started at the junction of Born Free and Lion’s Way (which also made it accessible from Giant Steps for those coming from Vail Village).
In 1988, the Born Free Express was built, and it was extended up to Cub’s Way so that one could access the central Front Side lifts directly without needing to use Minnie’s, and only need to take two lifts to reach Mid-Vail. This proved very useful when the Avanti Express lift was built the following year to replace the pair of Yan double chairlifts that had been built in 1976 to service that pod (Avanti and Upper Mid-Vail; the latter of which had served as the second in a chain of lifts to get out of Vail Village and which had been rendered orphaned after the Vista Bahn Express replaced the Vail Village double in 1985).
In 1993, Minnie’s was shortened to start at Cub’s Way, with the Pride Express lift taking its place as the upper lift supplementing the Lionshead Gondola.
Anyone have pictures of the Hunky Dory quad? I’m curious to see what it looked like, because two things confuse me: the spreadsheet and everywhere else lists it as a Yan lift, yet tower 6 on the Wildwood Express lift is clearly a re-used Dopplemayr tower. And to quote someone from the Wildwood Express comment thread, why would Vail, in the same year they used Doppelmayr to construct the Orient Express and Born Free Express lifts, use Yan for a one-off lift installation?
Of course, it would help if I had some idea as to where Hunky Dory went after 1995, and if it’s a lift Peter has photographed.
The number system was really bugging me, so I tried to make a full accounting based on Peter’s database and old trail maps.
Many operating surface lifts do not appear in Peter’s database since he typically doesn’t track carpets and rope tows.
What I could find:
1-12 are operating
13 has never been used (unlucky)
14-16 are operatinbg
17 Was formerly Sun Up before that was renumbered (17 was an even older lift before that)
18-22 are operating
23 Was a removed handle tow
24-29 Are operating
30 Was briefly a surface lift
35 Was very briefly a surface lift
36-39 Are operating
I don’t see any evidence 31 – 34 ever existed. And there’s no obvious reason 30 and 35 needed to be numbered so high. That leaves a bit of a mystery as to why Teacup and Blue Sky start at 36 … maybe Vail wanted to leave in a buffer for future front-side or back bowl lifts?
Currently, these numbers are unused: 13, 17, 23, 30-35
Sun Down will likely be assigned number 17, it will be the third location for 17 in Vail’s history, the first was a Yan double chair which paralleled Avanti 2.0 from 1976-1989. Vail or BC have never used #13 although interestingly Telluride has a surface lift which is #13. Maybe less risky for bad luck than an aerial chairlift. IIRC 29 was formerly 30, the surface lift near bottom of #6 at Vail. Beaver Creek does not have a #3 but had a plan originally for another lift below the Rose Bowl #4 which was never built and is not likely to ever be built (seems as if snow retention would be an issue in that area). Oddly enough the name for original 17 was “upper mid-Vail Express” even though it was a Yan double chair with a ride time of nearly 15 minutes with no footrests…
As far as early Vail lift history, this is how I understand it. I originally started skiing at Vail in 1976 but was quite young then (a little kid) so hopefully my memory serves me correctly…
1962- Original village gondola, lift 2 (then in Mountaintop express’s line), lift 3 (then in High Noon’s line)
1964- Lift 1 (giant Steps), Lift 2 (Original Riblet Avanti), Lift 3 (Original Hunky Dory)- Lift 2 is Avanti and Mountaintop express becomes lift 4, Hunky Dory is numbered 3 and High Noon becomes 5.
1967- Lifts 6 & 7 are built (both have since been replaced by HSQ in similar lines)
1969- Gondola in Lionshead (did not always have a number)
1974- Original lift 11
1975- Original lifts 12 and 14, 4 replaced with triple with mid 70s vintage chairs same style as the double wide chairs which were being used during this time period. Most of 12 was relocated from the ski hill near Minturn except for the Yan drive terminal (probably unable to relocate the vault drive)
1976- Lift 2 replaced with Yan double, 16 and 17 also installed, Yan doubles
1985- High speed lift movement began. 4 moved to become 3 (retaining original Yan 70s style triple chairs until around 88ish when just the chairs were replaced by quad chairs similar to Elkead 2.0 at Steamboat), 4,7,11,16 replaced with HSQs, 16 had covers.
The following years, I remember the same as others recall…
“1985- High speed lift movement began. 4 moved to become 3 (retaining original Yan 70s style triple chairs until around 88ish when just the chairs were replaced by quad chairs similar to Elkead 2.0 at Steamboat.”
As I said elsewhere, I think Doppelmayr must’ve replaced some of the tower tubes during that reinstallation, and at least one of them was retained for the Wildwood Express.
In March 1976, the Lionshead gondola dropped two cars full of skiers onto the ground from great height, killing four people and badly injuring eight more.
VA, in response, tore down both gondolas and replaced the Lionshead gondola with a more reliable design. The Vail Village gondola was replaced with a two-seat riblet lift 16 up to lower Gitalong Road, suitable for skiing over to lift 2 or the newly added lift 17 which ran directly parallel to lift 2. The result was a quadruple chairlift system with 1 and 16 parallel out of Vail Village up to the bases of parallel lifts 2 and 17 up to the middle of Eagles Nest Ridge. All four lifts were 2 seat Riblets. And there was no lift whatsoever that went up to Mid Vail, which probably mitigated the bathroom lines.
This peculiar institution persisted until the world’s first high speed quad detachable arrived to replace lift 16 in 1985. Called the Vista Bahn and made by Doppelmayr, it continued all the way up to Mid Vail. Oddly, the old partner of lift 16 when it only rose up to Gitalong Road, lift 17, continued to run in its old location for a number of years until its number (maybe equipment too?) was re-used for Sun Up Bowl’s unfortunate lift.
Yes Doppelmayr did replace some tubes and many of the tubes were (and are) from the 75 Yan. The return station on the relocated lift 3 from 1985 was also new Doppelmayr equipment but the drive station was the original Yan which was modified in the early 80s while the lift was still in the chair 4 line.
Boardski mentioned 12 was originally the lift over at Meadow Mountain (in Minturn, where the FS station and park and ride lot is). Makes sense as I’ve read in several places that VA bought MM and dismantled everything in the early 70s. The old ski area is now a good place to get familiar with backcountry skiing as it’s not very steep and easily accessible.
Teacup Express (36) is listed as having a vertical rise of 1266. The United States Forest Service topographical maps of Vail show the base at 9580 feet and the top terminal at 11247 feet.
Feels like Teacup gets tracked up with crud pretty quickly after a storm to me. China Bowl, Sun Down, and Siberia have either groomers or enough space to mitigate that effect, but not Teacup.
I don’t know. I think their theory logic is that “if people aren’t looking down at their devices, they’ll be more attentive when the attendants are pairing groups up at merge points / the odds of misloads go down”. I doubt it’ll be effective in practice.
I agree, I don’t see this majorly impacting liftlines when phone related misloads are probably a 1-2 time per day occurrence. I think this more likely will just annoy guests who feel like the mountain is overstepping and being controlling.
No one knows what the purpose of the policy is. It can’t be them trying to cut down on misloads and misunloads, though it could have to do with line management. I doubt it has anything to do with them not wanting pictures of crowded lift mazes circulating on the internet because someone determined to get such a picture out there will find a way to do so.
(I assume that’s an obvious sock name you’re using there)
Its because so many people are clueless in the liftline and paying more attention to their stupid phone.
They are literally fiddling with their phone in the whole maze, clueless to singles or other trying to pair up, lagging back, and not being prepared to load.
The signs aren’t going to change this, its just how much of society is these days….glued to their devices and ignorant about the world around them.
Hey Peter, you seem to have made a mistake on the spreadsheet. You listed the vertical for the old Game Creek quad at 1,107ft, which was the same vertical as the old Mountaintop quad. Based off of your photo from the lift line, the actual vertical seems to have been 1,180ft.
The Times recently ran a great piece on the Earth Liberation Front:
They mentioned a bunch of lifts were damaged along with Two Elk … but it looks like no chairlifts were fully replaced as a result (the arson was in 1998, but the first lift replacements to follow that year were in 2007). Curious if anyone knows more about how much damage happened.
“This year, Vail will be operating the new Sun Down Lift (No. 17), a high-speed four-person chair that will connect skiers from the bottom of Sun Down Bowl to Wildwood. The new lift will be in the bowl adjacent to where the Sun Up Express Lift (No. 9) operates. The number of the new lift also pays homage to the former Sun Up Lift, which was also No. 17 before it was replaced by the Sun Up Express Lift in 2016.”
Okay, a lift running from the bottom of the Sun Up Express to Wildwood is just impractical.
In all seriousness, this article wasn’t fact checked, and someone must’ve forgotten that the High Noon Express exists.
I don’t think anything in that quoted statement is wrong, just confusing. They don’t say the lift is adjacent to Sun Up Express, they say it’s in the *bowl* adjacent to Sun Up Bowl (which is true). It would have been way easier to interpret if they had just said “it runs from the bottom of High Noon to the top of Wildwood”.
Lift Blog 
Gopher Hill is actually #12 at Vail instead of #13 as you have it currently for the lift number.
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Thanks. No number 13 makes some sense.
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You put the pictures for the old High Noon triple in the pictures for the original High Noon Riblet double.
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Should be fixed now, thanks!
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Born free (8) was removed in 1988, not 1996
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Pure Speculation – Four New Lifts For Vail
If I had my druthers, I would add the following four HSQs (2400 PPH) to Vail.
-Sundown Express – Base of High Noon to the top of Wildwood.
-Mongolia Express – Base of Rasputin’s Revenge to the East Vail Chutes OB Gate
-Riva Ridge Express – Top of Riva Catwalk to top of Christmas. Once completed, take down the second section of current Rivabahn
-Ledges Express – Junction of Ledges and Born Free to the top of Pickeroon
Thoughts?
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1) Sundown is already planned. We’ll see if it gets built after all the CLD-260s get replaced.
2) I remember hearing speculation about a Mongolia lift, but I think that was just a suggestion and not an idea from Vail.
3) While a lift serving Riva Ridge would be nice, I don’t feel that it would be particularly useful. The only repeat terrain that it would serve would be two long and steep bump runs. Removing the second section of Riva Bahn would seriously damage circulation, as now, instead of taking Riva to Northwoods, you’d also have to take Highline if you wanted to access Patrol HQ.
4) I think that a Minie’s replacement should follow the original lift line, instead of veering of to the top of Avanti. The fall line would be too weird.
Personally, If I were to have free reign over the front side’s lifts, I’d build an express quad to the top of Golden Peak, and then replace Riva Bahn with a gondola. I’d then try to find a way to squeeze in a Giant Steps replacement, and then maybe a Minie’s replacement with a mid-station.
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With Minnie’s having a mid-load around where the lift’s loading area was after the Pride Express was built?
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1) Sundown Express is a great idea, especially given the High Noon line fiasco last winter. Personally, I would put the bottom terminal at the bottom of the bowl and not all the way down Sundown Catwalk, just to reduce crowding on that trail. However, Vail agrees with you and has this lift in their master plan.
2) Mongolia Express is another good idea that Vail has in its master plan. They will also cut East Pete’s Bowl to make it accessible from Pete’s Express.
3) I like this idea a lot, although I would probably extend the top terminal all the way to Buffalo’s at the top, just to more easily allow people to get to the Back Bowls.
4) Not too sure about this one. It would be weird to lap because Ledges/Old 9/Minnie’s are diamonds but the terrain above them is all easier, it wouldn’t provide back bowl access… it seems as though it is a less useful Avanti to be quite honest.
Something that I think would be useful that is not mentioned would be a high-speed quad out of Vail Village up Lindsey’s or Giant Steps right above Avanti to relieve Gondola One in the morning and post-lunch rush hours.
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If I were to install a Giant Steps Express lift, I would run it on/near the original lift line and run it all the way up to the Eagle’s Nest Ridge.
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If I had unlimited money, I’d go more for this:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=18EOlqhBPKX_6jumB8e4VzACFWz9Z5X3g&usp=sharing
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I like your idea for the east highline chair. But if go one step further. I would build a lift from the bottom of East high line to the top of Mongolia.
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It appears as it has been put on private. Have you put in Public or anyone with the link mode?
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Sundown Express and Game Creek Six: Good ideas that will be getting built next summer.
East Highline Express and Riva Ridge Express: Great ideas that would just require a couple infill trails.
West Wall Ropetow: This would definitely be useful for accessing Two Elk Lodge.
Game Creek II: I am not sure how necessary this is with the new six-pack being installed.
Giant Steps Express: I think this ends way too far up without reason, as it lacks access to anything except Avanti and the terrain is basically split in two at the base of Avanti. With that in mind, I would end it right above Avanti to make it easy to lap Giant Steps/Lindsey’s and still provide Avanti access.
Minnie’s Express: I like it, but I would not end it quite as far down. Perhaps at the intersection of Born Free and the Vail Village Catwalk.
Mongolia Express: Good idea, but I would end it higher up the mountain towards the peak, as the platter is a bit of an arbitrary reference point. Vail has a similar idea in their master plan.
Siberia Express: I do not think this is really necessary if Orient Express is upgraded, which will likely happen soon given its age.
Belle’s Express: Skyline Express does not get the traffic where I would say it is necessary, but the same could be said for Earl’s Express, which is very similar to this proposed lift, so perhaps it could be built.
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Siberia would be useful for lapping Siberia express and a way to avoid the long runout from Mongolia bowl.
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In this case, the on mountain restaurant should serve some foods involving sourdough bread or pastries in the name of Sourdough express. :) haha
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I think Vail needs to replace Born Free HSQ with a 6/10 Chondola and extend it up to Eagles Nest. This would relieve pressure off of Eagle Bahn in the morning while still maintaining the ease of a chair for multiple laps.
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What is the planned Ski Tip Gondola?
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Hey guys, I was digging through forest service archives, and I found Vail’s new 2018 master plan. https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd604580.pdf
Surprisingly, they don’t seem to be planning category upgrades for most of their old detachables, but replacement. Here’s a breakdown of the plan:
Upgrades/Replacements:
#3 Wildwood Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to be reduced from 2,800pp/h to 2,400.
#6 Riva Bahn Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to remain at 2,800.
#7 Game Creek Express (D4C) – Upgrade to D6C, capacity to increase from 2800 to 3,200.
#8 Born Free Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to remain at 2,800.
#20 Cascade Village (4C) – Upgrade to D4C, capacity to remain at 1,800.
#21 Orient Express (D4C) – Replacement with D4C, capacity to increase from 2,400 to 2,800.
#22 Mongolia Platter (1S) – May be replaced before Mongolia Express (#40) is built, with capacity to be 503. Regardless of replacement, will be removed after the completion of Mongolia Express.
#26 Pride Express (D4C) – Removal so that the liftline can be used by the second stage of the planed Ever Vail (AKA West Lionshead) Gondola (D8G), if the two-stage alternative is chosen. Will otherwise be replaced with a D4C, with capacity reduced from 2,800 to 2,400.
New Lifts:
#26 Ever Vail Gondola ((i) D8G or (ii) D4C) – Will run from new base area between Cascade Village and Lionshead to either (i) a midstation at the current bottom of Pride Express, with a second stage running to the top of Pride Express, or (ii) a spot on Post Road trail located between its junctions with Simba and Safari. Vertical rise for plan (i) will be 2,232′ and slope length 9,121′, with capacity at 2,400 for both plans (i) and (ii).
#40 Mongolia Express (D4C) – Will run from the bottom of Siberia Bowl to a spot 650′ down the ridge from the summit of East Vail Chutes. Vertical rise will be 1,575′ and slope length 5,786′ with a capacity at 2,400.
#41 Sundown Express (D4C) – Will run from the bottom of High Noon Express to the top of Game Creek Express. Vertical rise will be 1,608′ and slope length 6,177′, with capacity at 2,400.
#42 Golden Peak Surface Lift (1S) – Will run from the Golden Peak Race Traverse (at the top of the Golden Peak Terrain Park) to the lowest summit of Golden Peak. Vertical rise will be 678′ and slope length 2,001′, with capacity at 1,400.
I’m not sure why so many lifts are receiving replacements instead of upgrades. Vail might believe that they’ll have reached their largest market possible after the next four new lifts.
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Not sure why it makes sense to replace any of the detachables with tire driven terminals unless the capacity needs to be increased. With chain drive detachables it’s a different story as they get significantly less reliable as they age. Big Sky refurbished and relocated the old Ramcharger lift to Shedhorn which is older than all the Garaventa-CTEC high speed quads at Vail. Meanwhile, Vail scrapped Montezuma which could’ve received the same refurbishment and then been reinstalled.
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On the Orient Express and Born Free Express, I can see them just replacing the terminals and grips and leaving everything else, like Mount Bachelor did with Pine Marten in 2006.
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With Pine Marten, all Mount Bachelor did was replace the CLD-260 terminals with UNI-GS terminals, and the DS-104 grips replaced with DT-104 grips. Everything else was kept untouched, even the towers. Doppelmayr could do this to the CLD-260s that Vail needs to upgrade but doesn’t want to change to six packs, albeit with the newer AG grips that the Mountaintop Express and Avanti Express utilize.
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Are there any CTEC terminals outside of the five that exist at Vail/Beaver Creek? They might be looking to replace some or all of those due to a shortness of parts. Also – Montezuma wasn’t completely scrapped; its chairs and tower heads were used for Red Buffalo at Beaver Creek. They got rid of the terminals (which, while usable, were still old) and the towers (which I don’t think fit the lift profile). What’s really disappointed me is that they’re not replacing Riva Bahn with a gondola, and that they’re not replacing Orient with a six-pack, though they may have figured that Mongolia will help to relieve some of the burden on Orient.
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I believe the CTEC terminals at Vail/Beaver Creek are the same Stealth 1/2 (depending on the year) terminals but with a custom enclosure to match the CLD-260 detachables they already had. I hope they will upgrade Orient to a 6 pack as it seems the Mongolia Express is a ways off. I think replacing the remaining CLD-260’s should be the top priority followed by the expansion lifts. Then start replacing the Garaventa-CTEC high speed quads which will likely be over 30 years old by then.
Outside of Vail itself, the only CLD-260’s remaining in the company are Arrow Bahn at Beaver Creek, Comet at Heavenly, and 7th Heaven at Whistler Blackcomb. I think 7th Heaven will be replaced soon, but the others will stick around longer.
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The CTEC design used at Vail and Beaver Creek has also turned up on the Great Western Express at Brighton.
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Machinery-wise, there are a fair amount of the Garaventa/CTEC terminals with AK grips in Utah, two in Washington, one at Steamboat, and several in the east. The issue isn’t getting parts. My guess is, like other older lifts, they’re just getting costly to maintain.
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Ever Vail appears to be dead in the water, there’s been no public activity on it for years and most of the permits expire at the end of next year unless certain development deadlines (the largest being moving South Frontage Road and the resort’s shopyard) are met. Vail Resorts has pretty much gotten out of property development by now in any case.
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I’ll be all for a Giant Steps replacement, where the lift starts in Vail Village and ends at the top of Minnie’s, which could shift some traffic away from Mid-Vail.
I’d also be for cutting additional trails in the area off the Highline Express between Roger’s Run and Flap Jack.
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That terrain between Roger’s Run and Flap jack drains into Hairbag Alley is actually quite steap, almost chute-like steep in some sections. Because of this, it doesn’t hold snow well in some areas and has a lot of rocks and stumps. I think it would be difficult to open up as skiable terrain for the public.
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Where did you find this? Can you post the Link?
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It doesn’t make much sense to build a new Orient as a 2,800 pph quad given that resorts these days would rather go for a 6 pack with a 3,000 pph capacity.
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It can relatively safely be assumed that all of the quads at Vail will be replaced by six-packs when their time is up. Capacity will likely vary based on actual need. The same goes for Born Free, Riva Bahn, and Wildwood.
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I had a question, I saw this image online about the CWA conus cabins, but the cabin has the vail logo and says lionshead. Were these cabins on a gondola at vail at some point?
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https://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/bdd/cache/reportages/6848/photos/103.jpg this is the link for the photo
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Probably one of the options for cabins. If you look lower left it has a 1995 copyright the year before Eagle Bahn opened.
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The new Golden Peak T-Bar is number 16 according to Vail’s terrain and lift status on their site. Just so you know for the spreadsheet.
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Can’t get any pics of golden peak t bar. They are only currently letting the race team use it.
In other news. I think Wildwood and Northwoods are going to open tomorrow. I think they finished inspecting Wildwood today. Not sure about Northwoods though.
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Northwoods #11 and Sourdough #14 are opening tomorrow. Not yet for Wildwood #3.
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Pretty disappointed that Vail didn’t go with making an all-new map, preferably by James Niehues, to incorporate the Golden Peak T-Bar, instead using the existing VistaMap and modifying it just slightly. It’s noticeable that they’ve also retweaked other parts of the map, with the Avanti Express lift being realigned and Game Creek Bowl now being an insert with its own separate map. I guess this was done to make it because they’d had enough of having to put a disclaimer on Game Creek Bowl to remind people that the Game Creek Express is the only means of egress from the bowl.
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And here’s the new map for Game Creek Bowl:
Honestly, the perspective of the map is a little off. Because this map makes the Game Creek Express look like it ends closer to Wildwood than the lift actually ends.
Also, Game Trail doesn’t have such a direct route to the lift from Eagle’s Nest. It actually crosses Ouzo and ends around where Faro feeds into Showboat.
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I’m disappointed that they fixed this in this year’s map, but “Ouzo” is upside down
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That’s alright. There is always next year.
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Is there a reason Vail skipped numbers 28-35 on their lifts?
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They may have been (or still are) carpets. I haven’t visited my counterparts across the pass in a couple of years but I know they have a few, and they most likely are numbered as well for internal identification.
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A lot of the historical data from the 1960’s and early 70’s is incorrect and i can clear most of it up.
*Gondola one, lift 4 and lift 5 were the original lifts that opened in 1962. The stats for gondola one are incorrectly listed on lift 19. The stats for lifts 4 and 5 are likely lost to history and values listed belong to other lifts (see below).
*Lifts 1-6 were all in place by 67. The stats you have for lift 4 belong to 1. Lift 6 and 3 stats look right. The stats for lift 5 seem to match lift 2 roughly but I think have some typos. The original lift 2 was shorter than the current but not that much.
*7 and 19 were added in 69. The real stats for lift 19 from the lift survey of that year: Lionshead Gondola (6) Bell N/A 9300 2200 1100 690
*Lifts 8 and 9 were added in 72 but the stats need to be flipped. Confusingly the current lift 8 is longer than the original and the original lift 9 was longer when first installed than it was in later years.
From there on, the data looks accurate.
I hope that helps
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“Confusingly the current lift 8 is longer than the original and the original lift 9 was longer when first installed than it was in later years.”
Not really confusing. As built, the original Born Free double only ran up to Post Road, which is at tower 17 on the current Born Free Express lift. From there, if you wanted to get to Eagle’s Nest, you then skied a short ways down Born Free to the Minnie’s lift, which started at the junction of Born Free and Lion’s Way (which also made it accessible from Giant Steps for those coming from Vail Village).
In 1988, the Born Free Express was built, and it was extended up to Cub’s Way so that one could access the central Front Side lifts directly without needing to use Minnie’s, and only need to take two lifts to reach Mid-Vail. This proved very useful when the Avanti Express lift was built the following year to replace the pair of Yan double chairlifts that had been built in 1976 to service that pod (Avanti and Upper Mid-Vail; the latter of which had served as the second in a chain of lifts to get out of Vail Village and which had been rendered orphaned after the Vista Bahn Express replaced the Vail Village double in 1985).
In 1993, Minnie’s was shortened to start at Cub’s Way, with the Pride Express lift taking its place as the upper lift supplementing the Lionshead Gondola.
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Dec 14, 2020 Announcement by Vail that they were raising $500 million from Secured Notes, to be used for General Corporate Purposes, says to me that Vail is about to go on buying spree in the next few weeks or months. Or they think they are about to lose a ton of money during the current ski season just starting in North America. Let’s see what happens.
http://investors.vailresorts.com/news-releases/news-release-details/vail-resorts-inc-announces-commencement-convertible-senior-notes
copied from Liftblog Twitter re Tweet
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Not necessarily. From a financial accounting perspective, it could make sense to do this for other reasons as well.
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Anyone have pictures of the Hunky Dory quad? I’m curious to see what it looked like, because two things confuse me: the spreadsheet and everywhere else lists it as a Yan lift, yet tower 6 on the Wildwood Express lift is clearly a re-used Dopplemayr tower. And to quote someone from the Wildwood Express comment thread, why would Vail, in the same year they used Doppelmayr to construct the Orient Express and Born Free Express lifts, use Yan for a one-off lift installation?
Of course, it would help if I had some idea as to where Hunky Dory went after 1995, and if it’s a lift Peter has photographed.
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I remember seeing the queues and part of the bottom terminal in a picture in a New York Times article from the 90s I can’t find it though.
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The picture only really showed the Mountaintop Express.
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The original Northwoods Riblet double (#11) had a top drive
https://mountainscholar.org/handle/11124/9449
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I see what you mean, anyways, I fixed it. Go ahead and put what you want, sorry ‘bout that.
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Link?
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The number system was really bugging me, so I tried to make a full accounting based on Peter’s database and old trail maps.
Many operating surface lifts do not appear in Peter’s database since he typically doesn’t track carpets and rope tows.
What I could find:
1-12 are operating
13 has never been used (unlucky)
14-16 are operatinbg
17 Was formerly Sun Up before that was renumbered (17 was an even older lift before that)
18-22 are operating
23 Was a removed handle tow
24-29 Are operating
30 Was briefly a surface lift
35 Was very briefly a surface lift
36-39 Are operating
I don’t see any evidence 31 – 34 ever existed. And there’s no obvious reason 30 and 35 needed to be numbered so high. That leaves a bit of a mystery as to why Teacup and Blue Sky start at 36 … maybe Vail wanted to leave in a buffer for future front-side or back bowl lifts?
Currently, these numbers are unused: 13, 17, 23, 30-35
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Small correction: 35 is operating surface lift.
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I could see Vail using 17 for Sun Down Express.
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Sun Down will likely be assigned number 17, it will be the third location for 17 in Vail’s history, the first was a Yan double chair which paralleled Avanti 2.0 from 1976-1989. Vail or BC have never used #13 although interestingly Telluride has a surface lift which is #13. Maybe less risky for bad luck than an aerial chairlift. IIRC 29 was formerly 30, the surface lift near bottom of #6 at Vail. Beaver Creek does not have a #3 but had a plan originally for another lift below the Rose Bowl #4 which was never built and is not likely to ever be built (seems as if snow retention would be an issue in that area). Oddly enough the name for original 17 was “upper mid-Vail Express” even though it was a Yan double chair with a ride time of nearly 15 minutes with no footrests…
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As far as early Vail lift history, this is how I understand it. I originally started skiing at Vail in 1976 but was quite young then (a little kid) so hopefully my memory serves me correctly…
1962- Original village gondola, lift 2 (then in Mountaintop express’s line), lift 3 (then in High Noon’s line)
1964- Lift 1 (giant Steps), Lift 2 (Original Riblet Avanti), Lift 3 (Original Hunky Dory)- Lift 2 is Avanti and Mountaintop express becomes lift 4, Hunky Dory is numbered 3 and High Noon becomes 5.
1967- Lifts 6 & 7 are built (both have since been replaced by HSQ in similar lines)
1969- Gondola in Lionshead (did not always have a number)
1974- Original lift 11
1975- Original lifts 12 and 14, 4 replaced with triple with mid 70s vintage chairs same style as the double wide chairs which were being used during this time period. Most of 12 was relocated from the ski hill near Minturn except for the Yan drive terminal (probably unable to relocate the vault drive)
1976- Lift 2 replaced with Yan double, 16 and 17 also installed, Yan doubles
1985- High speed lift movement began. 4 moved to become 3 (retaining original Yan 70s style triple chairs until around 88ish when just the chairs were replaced by quad chairs similar to Elkead 2.0 at Steamboat), 4,7,11,16 replaced with HSQs, 16 had covers.
The following years, I remember the same as others recall…
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“1985- High speed lift movement began. 4 moved to become 3 (retaining original Yan 70s style triple chairs until around 88ish when just the chairs were replaced by quad chairs similar to Elkead 2.0 at Steamboat.”
As I said elsewhere, I think Doppelmayr must’ve replaced some of the tower tubes during that reinstallation, and at least one of them was retained for the Wildwood Express.
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The pictured tower is entirely new from the 95 HSQ upgrade, most tubes were reused though. I rode my bike around there a few times during that summer.
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In March 1976, the Lionshead gondola dropped two cars full of skiers onto the ground from great height, killing four people and badly injuring eight more.
VA, in response, tore down both gondolas and replaced the Lionshead gondola with a more reliable design. The Vail Village gondola was replaced with a two-seat riblet lift 16 up to lower Gitalong Road, suitable for skiing over to lift 2 or the newly added lift 17 which ran directly parallel to lift 2. The result was a quadruple chairlift system with 1 and 16 parallel out of Vail Village up to the bases of parallel lifts 2 and 17 up to the middle of Eagles Nest Ridge. All four lifts were 2 seat Riblets. And there was no lift whatsoever that went up to Mid Vail, which probably mitigated the bathroom lines.
This peculiar institution persisted until the world’s first high speed quad detachable arrived to replace lift 16 in 1985. Called the Vista Bahn and made by Doppelmayr, it continued all the way up to Mid Vail. Oddly, the old partner of lift 16 when it only rose up to Gitalong Road, lift 17, continued to run in its old location for a number of years until its number (maybe equipment too?) was re-used for Sun Up Bowl’s unfortunate lift.
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Breck built the Quicksilver Quad in 1981, four years before Vail built their first high speed quads. Also, those Vail Village lifts were Yans.
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Good correction.
The 1985-1986 Breckenridge ski map (©1985 Aspen Skiing Company) shows the old A1 lift where the Quicksilver lift would be built the next year, same year the Colorado went in.
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Yes Doppelmayr did replace some tubes and many of the tubes were (and are) from the 75 Yan. The return station on the relocated lift 3 from 1985 was also new Doppelmayr equipment but the drive station was the original Yan which was modified in the early 80s while the lift was still in the chair 4 line.
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The Spokane expo lift came here in 1974 I believe it would of been the gopher hill lift
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Boardski mentioned 12 was originally the lift over at Meadow Mountain (in Minturn, where the FS station and park and ride lot is). Makes sense as I’ve read in several places that VA bought MM and dismantled everything in the early 70s. The old ski area is now a good place to get familiar with backcountry skiing as it’s not very steep and easily accessible.
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Teacup Express (36) is listed as having a vertical rise of 1266. The United States Forest Service topographical maps of Vail show the base at 9580 feet and the top terminal at 11247 feet.
11247-9580 = 1667
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Teacup is my favorite lift to lap in the midday. Never busy and some of the teacup bowl trails are awesome. (Such an underrated bowl)
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Feels like Teacup gets tracked up with crud pretty quickly after a storm to me. China Bowl, Sun Down, and Siberia have either groomers or enough space to mitigate that effect, but not Teacup.
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I guess. The appeal to teacup to me though is that the lift usually runs at full speed and rarely has a line.
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It might supposed to be 1662.. Makes sense since starts a little lower than Orient.
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What’s with the new “phone free zones” at Vail? How will that help lift lines?
https://www.outtherecolorado.com/news/vail-introduces-no-phone-zones-in-attempt-to-improve-skiing-experience/article_6760ca18-7e11-11ec-9746-6790f427e322.amp.html
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https://www.vaildaily.com/news/vail-resorts-plan-to-reduce-lift-lines-includes-phone-free-zones/
I don’t know. I think their theory logic is that “if people aren’t looking down at their devices, they’ll be more attentive when the attendants are pairing groups up at merge points / the odds of misloads go down”. I doubt it’ll be effective in practice.
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I agree, I don’t see this majorly impacting liftlines when phone related misloads are probably a 1-2 time per day occurrence. I think this more likely will just annoy guests who feel like the mountain is overstepping and being controlling.
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Looks like Vail supports Ukraine in the current conflict right now. They are taking down Russian flags on the buildings they own with them on display
https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdScWgg7/
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Maybe they think fewer photos of their overcrowded lift mazes will be circulated on twitter if you can’t take out your phone?
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No one knows what the purpose of the policy is. It can’t be them trying to cut down on misloads and misunloads, though it could have to do with line management. I doubt it has anything to do with them not wanting pictures of crowded lift mazes circulating on the internet because someone determined to get such a picture out there will find a way to do so.
(I assume that’s an obvious sock name you’re using there)
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Its because so many people are clueless in the liftline and paying more attention to their stupid phone.
They are literally fiddling with their phone in the whole maze, clueless to singles or other trying to pair up, lagging back, and not being prepared to load.
The signs aren’t going to change this, its just how much of society is these days….glued to their devices and ignorant about the world around them.
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Hey Peter, you seem to have made a mistake on the spreadsheet. You listed the vertical for the old Game Creek quad at 1,107ft, which was the same vertical as the old Mountaintop quad. Based off of your photo from the lift line, the actual vertical seems to have been 1,180ft.
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The Times recently ran a great piece on the Earth Liberation Front:
They mentioned a bunch of lifts were damaged along with Two Elk … but it looks like no chairlifts were fully replaced as a result (the arson was in 1998, but the first lift replacements to follow that year were in 2007). Curious if anyone knows more about how much damage happened.
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There is a good article on this at the link below. https://www.denverpost.com/2018/10/27/vail-mountain-arson-looking-back/
I know that
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The Vail Daily seems to have confirmed Sun Down will be #17 …
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/vail-mountain-beaver-creek-announce-opening-dates-for-2022-23-season-limit-sales-on-lift-tickets/
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“This year, Vail will be operating the new Sun Down Lift (No. 17), a high-speed four-person chair that will connect skiers from the bottom of Sun Down Bowl to Wildwood. The new lift will be in the bowl adjacent to where the Sun Up Express Lift (No. 9) operates. The number of the new lift also pays homage to the former Sun Up Lift, which was also No. 17 before it was replaced by the Sun Up Express Lift in 2016.”
Okay, a lift running from the bottom of the Sun Up Express to Wildwood is just impractical.
In all seriousness, this article wasn’t fact checked, and someone must’ve forgotten that the High Noon Express exists.
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I don’t think anything in that quoted statement is wrong, just confusing. They don’t say the lift is adjacent to Sun Up Express, they say it’s in the *bowl* adjacent to Sun Up Bowl (which is true). It would have been way easier to interpret if they had just said “it runs from the bottom of High Noon to the top of Wildwood”.
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25th anniversary of when the radical eco yahoos messed up Vail.
https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/the-night-vail-mountain-was-set-ablaze-in-a-historic-act-of-ecoterrorism-25-years-later
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