Leitner combo assemblies.View down the lower part of the line.Depression tower 1.There are only three lifts like this in the United States. A handful more are in Canada.Loading area and parking rail.The top station and operator shack.Unloading area.Breakover towers.A rare one leg detachable station.Another view of the return terminal.This is one of the longest chairlifts in Vermont.Tower 1.View up at tower 2.Leitner Report entry.
This lift is 7350 feet long and is the longest skiable detachable quad in the Northeast US. The only longer detachable quad is Slide Brook (11012 feet) which can’t be lapped. The next longest detachable quads in the Northeast US are Grand Summit at Mount Snow (7320), and the Adirondack Express at Gore (7079). They are also the only other detachable quads that exceed 7000 feet. The White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley had an original length of 7532 feet which made it the longest, but it was shortened to under 6000 in 1997. There are 3 detachable quads in Quebec that are longer than this lift, those being Grand Point (8390) and Maillard (8061) at Le Massif, and Duncan at Tremblant (7670).
And Angel Fire NM has a Leitner detachable called Southwest Flyer. https://liftblog.com/southwest-flyer-angel-fire-nm/
It should also be noted that in Ontario, the Georgian Peaks ski club has a Leitner detachable called Champlain Express.
This lift earns it’s local name: The Freezer . Once you are exposed on the ridge it is 2-3 minutes of blasting wind and whatever is also falling from the sky. For this reason, it is also often closed or on hold.
Ah yes, the frigid lift from hell. Most days, 2 runs here will be all you can handle. It’s a useful lift, but if any chair in the entire country NEEDS bubbles, and yesterday, it’s this one.
Bubbles won’t work for this lift – it significantly increases the surface area of the chairs and thus would double the already high number of windholds on this chair.
Do we Westerners experience weather differently than y’all Easterners? I’m not attempting a personal endowment measuring contest here, just honestly curious. 40 winters of skiing and I’ve not only never wanted bubbles, I’ve chafed at riding gondolas and especially trams cos they make temperature regulation that much harder. The hill I grew up at routinely registers a “wintry mix” with 85 mph sustained ridgeline winds, and it’s not even on the side of a volcano. I’ve skied in the below zero American. The last 22 winters, I’ve been at it 3-7 days a week, not avoiding supposed “bad” weathers. Am I missing something? Should these things make me want plastic coverings and heated seats? I mean, I lerve me my bougie Forester’s bougie heated seats, but if I’m outside, the change from cold to warm and back makes the cold less manageable, and staying out in it makes it more manageable.
Yes … weather is a lot different in the East than out west. First off for a long time the highest ever recorded wind speed was on Mt. Washington only ~100 miles away. Secondly in the East there is a higher humidity. This higher humidity makes cold temperatures (and especially cold winds) feel colder more so than if the air was dry.
With respect to this lift it’s a horrible alignment. The final third of the lift crosses an old glacial bowl. The uphill “heavy” side of the lift is on the down side of the bowl meaning you’re quite high, well above the dwarfed trees due to the alpine conditions. In fact IMHO Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift: these towers in this segment are way too high for the wind and terrain factors. And the lift is oriented right into the prevailing wind direction so the wind is right in your face. Also the winds are extra severe at Jay because its a lone tall peak. All the air blowing by the mountain is forced up and over.
Are there solutions to the lift design? Yes. Could bubbles work? Yes. While bubbles do increase surface area, bubbles are streamlined such that if closed they cut through the wind nicely when the wind is parallel to the lift line. Bubble chairs are also significantly heavier than normal chairs to counteract any winds bouncing the chairs around sideways (to an extent). Bubble 6s and bubble 8s work better than bubble 4s.
Another solution would be just to close Alligator Alley, the narrow trail under the lift for the last third as the lift crosses the old glacial bowl. While this does provided access to two glades, you can simply move the access points to the bend in Wedelmaster and of Upper Goat Run. The trail is so narrow and flat it’s not good lappable terrain. If Alligator Alley is closed, the lift can be significantly lowered which would reduce wind issues.
A third solution (and best IMHO) is to cut the Flyer short and have it terminate at Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage. A second lift could take you up from Kokomo/Ullr’s Dream to the top of the Flyer so the pod is skiable. This has 2 benefits. 1) the bottom of the Flyer pod is a long flat runout and 2) if wind is an issue everything below Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage is still skiable, Guests at Tramside have a second way over to Stateside in the event of wind holds and 3) the new alignment of the upper lift for the pod should deal better with winds as you’re going up the bowl rather than across it.
However, none of these solutions would happen anytime soon as Jay Peak is still bogged down by the EB-5 fraud scandal and is still operated by the receiver. And any potential buyer once Jay Peak is finally sold has bigger fish to fry: Bonny and Jet replacements and dealing with the continuous maintenance headache that is the Tram.
@ Calvin – Fair points! I am intimately familiar with humidity’s effects on our interpretation of temps, having grown up skiing on the Wet Side, but otherwise, that’s a very thoughtful response with good local insight. Thank you!
The original Master Plan was for this to be 2 lifts, one directly replacing the old Hall Green Mountain Boys Double. And another that started at the bottom JFK to the top of where the Flyer now terminates. I think the money savings in building just 1 long lift, the cutting of Kokomo, which drastically relived the Ullr’s runout, and the Marketing of having the longest HSQ besides Slidebrook Express led to the Flyer being built as it is today.
Calvin- In regard to your opinion that “Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift…”, you are incorrect. The lift line location and areas of designated ski under clearance for the lift are specified by the Owner and their mountain planning group, not the Manufacturer. The Owner also provides the manufacturer with things such as prevailing wind direction and speeds, average snowpack at the drive and return terminals as well as along the lift line. Then the lift is designed to these parameters and eventually approved by the Owner. As for the wind “right in your face”, that is actually good from a lift design aspect. The worst is when the winds blow across the lift line causing chair swing. I agree that the Flyer IS actually 2 lifts- the one up to Tower 14 and then the upper part! Hope this clears things up a little.
Lift Blog 
huh, “Leitner report”, seems oddly familiar..
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They claim on their trail map this is the “Longest Detachable Quad in the Northeast” which is just flat out wrong
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This lift is 7350 feet long and is the longest skiable detachable quad in the Northeast US. The only longer detachable quad is Slide Brook (11012 feet) which can’t be lapped. The next longest detachable quads in the Northeast US are Grand Summit at Mount Snow (7320), and the Adirondack Express at Gore (7079). They are also the only other detachable quads that exceed 7000 feet. The White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley had an original length of 7532 feet which made it the longest, but it was shortened to under 6000 in 1997. There are 3 detachable quads in Quebec that are longer than this lift, those being Grand Point (8390) and Maillard (8061) at Le Massif, and Duncan at Tremblant (7670).
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What is the other lift like the Flyer?
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Quickdraw at Granby Ranch, CO
https://liftblog.com/quickdraw-granby-ranch-co/
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And Angel Fire NM has a Leitner detachable called Southwest Flyer.
https://liftblog.com/southwest-flyer-angel-fire-nm/
It should also be noted that in Ontario, the Georgian Peaks ski club has a Leitner detachable called Champlain Express.
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When we skied here, the top section along the ridge was the windiest and coldest lift I’ve ever been on.
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This lift earns it’s local name: The Freezer . Once you are exposed on the ridge it is 2-3 minutes of blasting wind and whatever is also falling from the sky. For this reason, it is also often closed or on hold.
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Ah yes, the frigid lift from hell. Most days, 2 runs here will be all you can handle. It’s a useful lift, but if any chair in the entire country NEEDS bubbles, and yesterday, it’s this one.
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Yes, I was there this weekend, and even though it was April, it was cold on that lift……. Bubbles are needed.
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Bubbles won’t work for this lift – it significantly increases the surface area of the chairs and thus would double the already high number of windholds on this chair.
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Do we Westerners experience weather differently than y’all Easterners? I’m not attempting a personal endowment measuring contest here, just honestly curious. 40 winters of skiing and I’ve not only never wanted bubbles, I’ve chafed at riding gondolas and especially trams cos they make temperature regulation that much harder. The hill I grew up at routinely registers a “wintry mix” with 85 mph sustained ridgeline winds, and it’s not even on the side of a volcano. I’ve skied in the below zero American. The last 22 winters, I’ve been at it 3-7 days a week, not avoiding supposed “bad” weathers. Am I missing something? Should these things make me want plastic coverings and heated seats? I mean, I lerve me my bougie Forester’s bougie heated seats, but if I’m outside, the change from cold to warm and back makes the cold less manageable, and staying out in it makes it more manageable.
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Joe,
Yes … weather is a lot different in the East than out west. First off for a long time the highest ever recorded wind speed was on Mt. Washington only ~100 miles away. Secondly in the East there is a higher humidity. This higher humidity makes cold temperatures (and especially cold winds) feel colder more so than if the air was dry.
With respect to this lift it’s a horrible alignment. The final third of the lift crosses an old glacial bowl. The uphill “heavy” side of the lift is on the down side of the bowl meaning you’re quite high, well above the dwarfed trees due to the alpine conditions. In fact IMHO Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift: these towers in this segment are way too high for the wind and terrain factors. And the lift is oriented right into the prevailing wind direction so the wind is right in your face. Also the winds are extra severe at Jay because its a lone tall peak. All the air blowing by the mountain is forced up and over.
Are there solutions to the lift design? Yes. Could bubbles work? Yes. While bubbles do increase surface area, bubbles are streamlined such that if closed they cut through the wind nicely when the wind is parallel to the lift line. Bubble chairs are also significantly heavier than normal chairs to counteract any winds bouncing the chairs around sideways (to an extent). Bubble 6s and bubble 8s work better than bubble 4s.
Another solution would be just to close Alligator Alley, the narrow trail under the lift for the last third as the lift crosses the old glacial bowl. While this does provided access to two glades, you can simply move the access points to the bend in Wedelmaster and of Upper Goat Run. The trail is so narrow and flat it’s not good lappable terrain. If Alligator Alley is closed, the lift can be significantly lowered which would reduce wind issues.
A third solution (and best IMHO) is to cut the Flyer short and have it terminate at Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage. A second lift could take you up from Kokomo/Ullr’s Dream to the top of the Flyer so the pod is skiable. This has 2 benefits. 1) the bottom of the Flyer pod is a long flat runout and 2) if wind is an issue everything below Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage is still skiable, Guests at Tramside have a second way over to Stateside in the event of wind holds and 3) the new alignment of the upper lift for the pod should deal better with winds as you’re going up the bowl rather than across it.
However, none of these solutions would happen anytime soon as Jay Peak is still bogged down by the EB-5 fraud scandal and is still operated by the receiver. And any potential buyer once Jay Peak is finally sold has bigger fish to fry: Bonny and Jet replacements and dealing with the continuous maintenance headache that is the Tram.
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@ Calvin – Fair points! I am intimately familiar with humidity’s effects on our interpretation of temps, having grown up skiing on the Wet Side, but otherwise, that’s a very thoughtful response with good local insight. Thank you!
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The original Master Plan was for this to be 2 lifts, one directly replacing the old Hall Green Mountain Boys Double. And another that started at the bottom JFK to the top of where the Flyer now terminates. I think the money savings in building just 1 long lift, the cutting of Kokomo, which drastically relived the Ullr’s runout, and the Marketing of having the longest HSQ besides Slidebrook Express led to the Flyer being built as it is today.
LikeLike
Calvin- In regard to your opinion that “Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift…”, you are incorrect. The lift line location and areas of designated ski under clearance for the lift are specified by the Owner and their mountain planning group, not the Manufacturer. The Owner also provides the manufacturer with things such as prevailing wind direction and speeds, average snowpack at the drive and return terminals as well as along the lift line. Then the lift is designed to these parameters and eventually approved by the Owner. As for the wind “right in your face”, that is actually good from a lift design aspect. The worst is when the winds blow across the lift line causing chair swing. I agree that the Flyer IS actually 2 lifts- the one up to Tower 14 and then the upper part! Hope this clears things up a little.
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Idk, I think upper Beaver creek mountain express in CO could use bubbles real bad…
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