Leitner combo assemblies.View down the lower part of the line.Depression tower 1.There are only three lifts like this in the United States. A handful more are in Canada.Loading area and parking rail.The top station and operator shack.Unloading area.Breakover towers.A rare one leg detachable station.Another view of the return terminal.This is one of the longest chairlifts in Vermont.Tower 1.View up at tower 2.Leitner Report entry.
This lift is 7350 feet long and is the longest skiable detachable quad in the Northeast US. The only longer detachable quad is Slide Brook (11012 feet) which can’t be lapped. The next longest detachable quads in the Northeast US are Grand Summit at Mount Snow (7320), and the Adirondack Express at Gore (7079). They are also the only other detachable quads that exceed 7000 feet. The White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley had an original length of 7532 feet which made it the longest, but it was shortened to under 6000 in 1997. There are 3 detachable quads in Quebec that are longer than this lift, those being Grand Point (8390) and Maillard (8061) at Le Massif, and Duncan at Tremblant (7670).
And Angel Fire NM has a Leitner detachable called Southwest Flyer. https://liftblog.com/southwest-flyer-angel-fire-nm/
It should also be noted that in Ontario, the Georgian Peaks ski club has a Leitner detachable called Champlain Express.
This lift earns it’s local name: The Freezer . Once you are exposed on the ridge it is 2-3 minutes of blasting wind and whatever is also falling from the sky. For this reason, it is also often closed or on hold.
Ah yes, the frigid lift from hell. Most days, 2 runs here will be all you can handle. It’s a useful lift, but if any chair in the entire country NEEDS bubbles, and yesterday, it’s this one.
Bubbles won’t work for this lift – it significantly increases the surface area of the chairs and thus would double the already high number of windholds on this chair.
Do we Westerners experience weather differently than y’all Easterners? I’m not attempting a personal endowment measuring contest here, just honestly curious. 40 winters of skiing and I’ve not only never wanted bubbles, I’ve chafed at riding gondolas and especially trams cos they make temperature regulation that much harder. The hill I grew up at routinely registers a “wintry mix” with 85 mph sustained ridgeline winds, and it’s not even on the side of a volcano. I’ve skied in the below zero American. The last 22 winters, I’ve been at it 3-7 days a week, not avoiding supposed “bad” weathers. Am I missing something? Should these things make me want plastic coverings and heated seats? I mean, I lerve me my bougie Forester’s bougie heated seats, but if I’m outside, the change from cold to warm and back makes the cold less manageable, and staying out in it makes it more manageable.
Yes … weather is a lot different in the East than out west. First off for a long time the highest ever recorded wind speed was on Mt. Washington only ~100 miles away. Secondly in the East there is a higher humidity. This higher humidity makes cold temperatures (and especially cold winds) feel colder more so than if the air was dry.
With respect to this lift it’s a horrible alignment. The final third of the lift crosses an old glacial bowl. The uphill “heavy” side of the lift is on the down side of the bowl meaning you’re quite high, well above the dwarfed trees due to the alpine conditions. In fact IMHO Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift: these towers in this segment are way too high for the wind and terrain factors. And the lift is oriented right into the prevailing wind direction so the wind is right in your face. Also the winds are extra severe at Jay because its a lone tall peak. All the air blowing by the mountain is forced up and over.
Are there solutions to the lift design? Yes. Could bubbles work? Yes. While bubbles do increase surface area, bubbles are streamlined such that if closed they cut through the wind nicely when the wind is parallel to the lift line. Bubble chairs are also significantly heavier than normal chairs to counteract any winds bouncing the chairs around sideways (to an extent). Bubble 6s and bubble 8s work better than bubble 4s.
Another solution would be just to close Alligator Alley, the narrow trail under the lift for the last third as the lift crosses the old glacial bowl. While this does provided access to two glades, you can simply move the access points to the bend in Wedelmaster and of Upper Goat Run. The trail is so narrow and flat it’s not good lappable terrain. If Alligator Alley is closed, the lift can be significantly lowered which would reduce wind issues.
A third solution (and best IMHO) is to cut the Flyer short and have it terminate at Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage. A second lift could take you up from Kokomo/Ullr’s Dream to the top of the Flyer so the pod is skiable. This has 2 benefits. 1) the bottom of the Flyer pod is a long flat runout and 2) if wind is an issue everything below Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage is still skiable, Guests at Tramside have a second way over to Stateside in the event of wind holds and 3) the new alignment of the upper lift for the pod should deal better with winds as you’re going up the bowl rather than across it.
However, none of these solutions would happen anytime soon as Jay Peak is still bogged down by the EB-5 fraud scandal and is still operated by the receiver. And any potential buyer once Jay Peak is finally sold has bigger fish to fry: Bonny and Jet replacements and dealing with the continuous maintenance headache that is the Tram.
@ Calvin – Fair points! I am intimately familiar with humidity’s effects on our interpretation of temps, having grown up skiing on the Wet Side, but otherwise, that’s a very thoughtful response with good local insight. Thank you!
The original Master Plan was for this to be 2 lifts, one directly replacing the old Hall Green Mountain Boys Double. And another that started at the bottom JFK to the top of where the Flyer now terminates. I think the money savings in building just 1 long lift, the cutting of Kokomo, which drastically relived the Ullr’s runout, and the Marketing of having the longest HSQ besides Slidebrook Express led to the Flyer being built as it is today.
Calvin- In regard to your opinion that “Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift…”, you are incorrect. The lift line location and areas of designated ski under clearance for the lift are specified by the Owner and their mountain planning group, not the Manufacturer. The Owner also provides the manufacturer with things such as prevailing wind direction and speeds, average snowpack at the drive and return terminals as well as along the lift line. Then the lift is designed to these parameters and eventually approved by the Owner. As for the wind “right in your face”, that is actually good from a lift design aspect. The worst is when the winds blow across the lift line causing chair swing. I agree that the Flyer IS actually 2 lifts- the one up to Tower 14 and then the upper part! Hope this clears things up a little.
The early 90s master plan actually DID call for that third option as Calvin suggested — the detach quad out of tramside to terminate at the top of Northwest Passage as a direct replacement for the previous double, and an Ullr’s lift (not sure fixed or detach) run up from the bottom of that bowl to about the current Flyer summit. Not sure why, officially, the extended double replacement as we now know the Flyer went up as it is. Various West Bowl proposals over the past 25 years would have drastically reshaped the trail layout of that JFK/Ullr’s pod, too, but those have always changed and none have seemed particularly close to reality.
Regarding the idea of cutting The Flyer short at Northwest Passage, that recreates the old Green Mountain lift that The Flyer replaced. The idea behind extending The Flyer to Northway makes sense, as Northway really is the gateway to a ton of terrain. However, reusing the original Green Mountain alignment is what caused issues, as the subsequent straight line above the original alignment is extremely exposed.
Without a Northway connection, The Flyer is just not that much more useful than Metro unfortunately, as was the case years ago. The best alignment is probably to parallel the tram until Bonaventure, obviously staying much lower to the ground. I’m not sure if this is possible due to necessary clearances or other regulations, but staying further east mitigates the wind just far enough to reach Northway. A second upper mountain lift could then be built from somewhere down on Ullr’s Dream up to the top of the trail at its intersection with Northway.
Rode this today for the first time, and I can’t imagine it in the dead of winter. Felt slow and the bars didn’t want to stay down, either. Went on windhold after I got off, and I could feel why: you get absolutely blasted with wind as you crest the ridge. I’m really surprised that it’s as high up as it is in this section, too: surely, there has to be a way to keep the lift lower to the ground and thus at least at or below the trees… But I’ll defer to the experts here. Interesting reading the comments on this one.
Lift Blog 
huh, “Leitner report”, seems oddly familiar..
LikeLiked by 1 person
They claim on their trail map this is the “Longest Detachable Quad in the Northeast” which is just flat out wrong
LikeLike
This lift is 7350 feet long and is the longest skiable detachable quad in the Northeast US. The only longer detachable quad is Slide Brook (11012 feet) which can’t be lapped. The next longest detachable quads in the Northeast US are Grand Summit at Mount Snow (7320), and the Adirondack Express at Gore (7079). They are also the only other detachable quads that exceed 7000 feet. The White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley had an original length of 7532 feet which made it the longest, but it was shortened to under 6000 in 1997. There are 3 detachable quads in Quebec that are longer than this lift, those being Grand Point (8390) and Maillard (8061) at Le Massif, and Duncan at Tremblant (7670).
LikeLiked by 4 people
What is the other lift like the Flyer?
LikeLike
Quickdraw at Granby Ranch, CO
https://liftblog.com/quickdraw-granby-ranch-co/
LikeLike
And Angel Fire NM has a Leitner detachable called Southwest Flyer.
https://liftblog.com/southwest-flyer-angel-fire-nm/
It should also be noted that in Ontario, the Georgian Peaks ski club has a Leitner detachable called Champlain Express.
LikeLike
When we skied here, the top section along the ridge was the windiest and coldest lift I’ve ever been on.
LikeLike
This lift earns it’s local name: The Freezer . Once you are exposed on the ridge it is 2-3 minutes of blasting wind and whatever is also falling from the sky. For this reason, it is also often closed or on hold.
LikeLike
Ah yes, the frigid lift from hell. Most days, 2 runs here will be all you can handle. It’s a useful lift, but if any chair in the entire country NEEDS bubbles, and yesterday, it’s this one.
LikeLike
Yes, I was there this weekend, and even though it was April, it was cold on that lift……. Bubbles are needed.
LikeLike
Bubbles won’t work for this lift – it significantly increases the surface area of the chairs and thus would double the already high number of windholds on this chair.
LikeLike
Do we Westerners experience weather differently than y’all Easterners? I’m not attempting a personal endowment measuring contest here, just honestly curious. 40 winters of skiing and I’ve not only never wanted bubbles, I’ve chafed at riding gondolas and especially trams cos they make temperature regulation that much harder. The hill I grew up at routinely registers a “wintry mix” with 85 mph sustained ridgeline winds, and it’s not even on the side of a volcano. I’ve skied in the below zero American. The last 22 winters, I’ve been at it 3-7 days a week, not avoiding supposed “bad” weathers. Am I missing something? Should these things make me want plastic coverings and heated seats? I mean, I lerve me my bougie Forester’s bougie heated seats, but if I’m outside, the change from cold to warm and back makes the cold less manageable, and staying out in it makes it more manageable.
LikeLike
Joe,
Yes … weather is a lot different in the East than out west. First off for a long time the highest ever recorded wind speed was on Mt. Washington only ~100 miles away. Secondly in the East there is a higher humidity. This higher humidity makes cold temperatures (and especially cold winds) feel colder more so than if the air was dry.
With respect to this lift it’s a horrible alignment. The final third of the lift crosses an old glacial bowl. The uphill “heavy” side of the lift is on the down side of the bowl meaning you’re quite high, well above the dwarfed trees due to the alpine conditions. In fact IMHO Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift: these towers in this segment are way too high for the wind and terrain factors. And the lift is oriented right into the prevailing wind direction so the wind is right in your face. Also the winds are extra severe at Jay because its a lone tall peak. All the air blowing by the mountain is forced up and over.
Are there solutions to the lift design? Yes. Could bubbles work? Yes. While bubbles do increase surface area, bubbles are streamlined such that if closed they cut through the wind nicely when the wind is parallel to the lift line. Bubble chairs are also significantly heavier than normal chairs to counteract any winds bouncing the chairs around sideways (to an extent). Bubble 6s and bubble 8s work better than bubble 4s.
Another solution would be just to close Alligator Alley, the narrow trail under the lift for the last third as the lift crosses the old glacial bowl. While this does provided access to two glades, you can simply move the access points to the bend in Wedelmaster and of Upper Goat Run. The trail is so narrow and flat it’s not good lappable terrain. If Alligator Alley is closed, the lift can be significantly lowered which would reduce wind issues.
A third solution (and best IMHO) is to cut the Flyer short and have it terminate at Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage. A second lift could take you up from Kokomo/Ullr’s Dream to the top of the Flyer so the pod is skiable. This has 2 benefits. 1) the bottom of the Flyer pod is a long flat runout and 2) if wind is an issue everything below Green Mountain Boy/Northwest Passage is still skiable, Guests at Tramside have a second way over to Stateside in the event of wind holds and 3) the new alignment of the upper lift for the pod should deal better with winds as you’re going up the bowl rather than across it.
However, none of these solutions would happen anytime soon as Jay Peak is still bogged down by the EB-5 fraud scandal and is still operated by the receiver. And any potential buyer once Jay Peak is finally sold has bigger fish to fry: Bonny and Jet replacements and dealing with the continuous maintenance headache that is the Tram.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ Calvin – Fair points! I am intimately familiar with humidity’s effects on our interpretation of temps, having grown up skiing on the Wet Side, but otherwise, that’s a very thoughtful response with good local insight. Thank you!
LikeLike
The original Master Plan was for this to be 2 lifts, one directly replacing the old Hall Green Mountain Boys Double. And another that started at the bottom JFK to the top of where the Flyer now terminates. I think the money savings in building just 1 long lift, the cutting of Kokomo, which drastically relived the Ullr’s runout, and the Marketing of having the longest HSQ besides Slidebrook Express led to the Flyer being built as it is today.
LikeLike
Calvin- In regard to your opinion that “Leitner fundamentally designed a flawed lift…”, you are incorrect. The lift line location and areas of designated ski under clearance for the lift are specified by the Owner and their mountain planning group, not the Manufacturer. The Owner also provides the manufacturer with things such as prevailing wind direction and speeds, average snowpack at the drive and return terminals as well as along the lift line. Then the lift is designed to these parameters and eventually approved by the Owner. As for the wind “right in your face”, that is actually good from a lift design aspect. The worst is when the winds blow across the lift line causing chair swing. I agree that the Flyer IS actually 2 lifts- the one up to Tower 14 and then the upper part! Hope this clears things up a little.
LikeLiked by 3 people
The early 90s master plan actually DID call for that third option as Calvin suggested — the detach quad out of tramside to terminate at the top of Northwest Passage as a direct replacement for the previous double, and an Ullr’s lift (not sure fixed or detach) run up from the bottom of that bowl to about the current Flyer summit. Not sure why, officially, the extended double replacement as we now know the Flyer went up as it is. Various West Bowl proposals over the past 25 years would have drastically reshaped the trail layout of that JFK/Ullr’s pod, too, but those have always changed and none have seemed particularly close to reality.
LikeLike
Regarding the idea of cutting The Flyer short at Northwest Passage, that recreates the old Green Mountain lift that The Flyer replaced. The idea behind extending The Flyer to Northway makes sense, as Northway really is the gateway to a ton of terrain. However, reusing the original Green Mountain alignment is what caused issues, as the subsequent straight line above the original alignment is extremely exposed.
Without a Northway connection, The Flyer is just not that much more useful than Metro unfortunately, as was the case years ago. The best alignment is probably to parallel the tram until Bonaventure, obviously staying much lower to the ground. I’m not sure if this is possible due to necessary clearances or other regulations, but staying further east mitigates the wind just far enough to reach Northway. A second upper mountain lift could then be built from somewhere down on Ullr’s Dream up to the top of the trail at its intersection with Northway.
LikeLike
Idk, I think upper Beaver creek mountain express in CO could use bubbles real bad…
LikeLike
This is probably one of the coldest chairlifts in the world.
LikeLike
If i had a nickel for every Leitner detachable with flyer in its name id have two nickels, which isn’t alot but its weird that it happened twice…
LikeLike
Rode this today for the first time, and I can’t imagine it in the dead of winter. Felt slow and the bars didn’t want to stay down, either. Went on windhold after I got off, and I could feel why: you get absolutely blasted with wind as you crest the ridge. I’m really surprised that it’s as high up as it is in this section, too: surely, there has to be a way to keep the lift lower to the ground and thus at least at or below the trees… But I’ll defer to the experts here. Interesting reading the comments on this one.
LikeLike