I think you forgot something. In your pics of First Time and Eagle, what you didn’t post is 3 Kings Double. Also, are there pics of Prospector Express, one of 2 yan high-speeds in Utah?
It was relocated and became the new Motherlode Express. Tower foundations and tubes from the old CTEC lift were reused on the new Doppelmayr six pack, while the crossarms were used on the Motherlode.
Greenhorn lift was replaced by the Red Hawk Quad, along with Tumbleweed. After 1997, the beginner area was moved to High Meadow and it didn’t make sense to keep two lifts for a small area.
Nope. Garaventa CTEC detachables use Garaventa detachable technology. They are similar in that they resemble eachother and operate almost the same, but they aren’t the same grips.
No, it is a Garaventa design, specifically the AK400. CTEC used four different Garaventa grip designs from 1990-2004. The first/second is the AK4.0/AK4.1, which was seen commonly on High-speed quad lifts they built. For their 6 pack lifts, they must’ve felt they needed a heavier duty grip, so this one was used. When the Stealth III terminal design came out, the Garaventa AK460 grips replaced all of the earlier grips, and were used until CTEC’s detachable designs were phased out by Doppelmayr in 2004.
OOPS, I mis-typed slightly. The Stealth II PCMR six packs have the Garaventa AK 680 grip (NOT the 400). The AK400 and 460 came later (with Stealth III/2000).
Doppelmayr has become as large as they are today mainly because they have taken over several companies in the past.
Agamatic was an Italian lift manufacturer, which designed and manufactured their own lifts before being bought out by Doppelmayr. The Agamatic grip was one such product. The Agamatic grips are offered primarily because they are a single position grip, which is in contrast to the DT series grips, which are dual position. The DT grips are an original Doppelmayr design.
Garaventa was a Swiss lift manufacturer, who is best known in North America for supplying parts on CTEC’s detachable lifts. In 1993 Garaventa purchased CTEC, creating Garaventa CTEC. CTEC’s lift designs were quite different from anything Garaventa, with the main thing being that CTEC used Garaventa’s detachable grips, including the AK-400 and 460, which visually look like Agamatic grips, and are both single position grips.
Doppelmayr acquired both of these firms. Agamatic first, Garaventa second. With Doppelmayr acquiring Garaventa, this meant that Garaventa CTEC and Doppelmayr USA needed to merge, forming Doppelmayr CTEC in 2002. With this, most of CTEC’s detachable products were phased out, although the fixed grip designs lasted longer, and Doppelmayr USA fixed grip installations are still different from the worldwide Doppelmayr fixed-grip product. Because of this, Garaventa grip designs haven’t been seen on a new North American installation since Collins at Alta was completed in 2004. Everything since then (except for the new D-Line which has it’s own grips and terminals) has been Uni-G/GS with either DT grips, or the Agamatic grips.
I think this has created some confusion because new lifts were built by essentially the same company with very similiar grips, leading to some thinking the Agamatic grip is a rebranded AK-460. It is not. Garaventa grips, including the AK-400/460, can still be found on MCS-series detachable lifts. No such installation has occurred in North America, however.
Opt. 1: I think you intend for a gondola to replace Crescent and be extended to the top of Bonanza, to relieve traffic on Silverlode. I’d keep Crescent as is, so that there is a chairlift for lapping the trails west of Treasure Hollow and south of CB’s Run.
Opt. 2: An up-and-over gondola directly from Miner’s Camp to the main village would allow someone more direct access to the Quicksilver Gondola for Canyons access without having to take chairlifts and ski down to Miner’s Camp. But it would also put more demand on Silverlode, and I can’t fathom the tall towers (and wind exposure) that would happen while crossing over King Con.
Opt. 3: I guess Opt. 3 would be something like a high speed quad to provide lapping service to most of Crescent’s pod in conjunction with Opt. 1?
Opt. 4: A fixed grip out of Miner’s Camp to take some traffic off of SIlverlode is practical, but I’d probably align it to end at the top of Crescent to reach more trails, rather than end it at the top of King Con.
Option 1: I think it is a good idea presuming it is has a mid/angle station for offloading where Crescent’s top terminal currently resides to allow easier access to the Crescent pod. They could also then expand Summit House to use it during the summer, as it has pretty good views.
Option 2: I think this lift is pretty unnecessary because it is pretty easy to get in and out of Miner’s Camp and it would require tall towers to cross a number of lifts. This looks like a replacement for Eagle, which isn’t really necessary by itself but…
Option 3: I think this lift could make a lot of sense as a replacement for Eagle & Eaglet & 3 Kings if Park City wanted to create a mega-terrain park serviced by a high-speed lift.
Option 4: I think a fixed-grip lift to help alleviate the Silverlode traffic and get people back to the main base, similar to the new Over and Out across the mountain, would be useful.
It is absolutely practical. However, it would only serve terrain already accessible from Crescent and force skiers to go to either King Con or Miner’s Camp if they wish to use it as an out of base lift. These two areas are already very crowded. A Crescent upgrade would make more sense as it would provide the same out of base capacity increase but better distribute skiers across the mountain.
The tram was built by riblet in 1901 last ran in 1952 the ore bins sat on the line until 1963 were they were Soto red in the bottom terminal in 1978or1979 the bottom terminal burnt down. Then in 1989 the top terminal and parts of the mill structures were torn down for the new lifts and runs the mine last operated in 1977-1978
No. A lift from the base of Day Break/Dreamscape to bypass Tombstone was a separate earlier proposal years ago by WPC. It was to go from the base of Day Break to the top of Peak 5. Even though the proposal has been withdrawn, it would still be possible to build because the property lines were designed to accommodate the lift.
The proposed expansion is tied up in Colony real estate. They are the landowners and will start building when their house construction moves that far up the canyon. Currently, they are entering phase 5F, which is likely the farthest they can get without needing to build a lift right above Flat Iron to keep ski-in/ski-out access. Phase 5H will likely require another lift up to pinecone ridge, roughly to the top of Half Moon/Quarter Moon. These two lifts are both accounted for in their master plan.
Most skiers/boarders that are coming from Park City back to Canyons use Dreamcatcher to get to the Tombstone base. Also, most skiers/boarders want to ski down rather than riding Timberline across the Canyon. Since Park City is probably going to replace Dreamcatcher soon, that would make less of a demand for this lift to the top of Iron Mountain. If this lift were to be built, it would probably be used as more of a housing access lift, considering its proximity to the housing near there.
There’s also a private ski lift off the Upper White Pine trail thats some sort of lift on a track. Peter doesn’t include rope tows, pony tows, or carpets.
Where exactly was the Poma platter at Park City? This lift doesn’t show up on any of the trail maps at the time. Was the lift private or for race training?
There was a Poma lift at the Red Pine lodge on the Canyons side, just to the north of the gondola terminal originally in a learning area. I think there’s a carpet lift there now
Does anyone else find it odd that Canyons did not re-use the original Tombstone High Speed quad to install Dreamcatcher? I feel like it would have cost them the same or even less to re-install it there. Was maintenance costs a concern? If the lift was bottom drive, how hard would it have been to convert ti to a top drive? Also I do know that at the time that Dreamcatcher was constructed, it was in the middle of nowhere. The Tombstone Quad had more than enough length to be re-installed over there and if they wanted to reduce capacity they could have always just not used some of the chairs.
Tombstone was relocated to Steamboat where it replaced Sunshine. Back in 2006, Sunshine at Steamboat was much more heavily used than Dreamcatcher and in need of an upgrade. Honestly, it still may be more heavily used to this day, even after the Park City/Canyons connection.
Steamboat more urgently needed a high speed quad for the Sunshine Express lift. The original Tombstone wasn’t such a bottleneck back at a time when most of the Canyons traffic stayed closer to the area around Saddleback and Super Condor.
Remember at the time Dreamcatcher was built in 2006 there was no plan on the table to ever link up the Canyons and PCMR. When it was built it was the end of the earth miles away from the base area and was never expected to have any crowds, much less be the centrally located lift in a 7000-acre resort with a crowded restaurant at the top. Everything south of 9990 was built with the purpose of selling houses in the Colony, and American Skiing Company had long since run out of money to build out their master plan as they originally intended in the late 1990s, with every one of those south side lifts being detachables. Peak 5, Dreamscape, Dreamcatcher, and Day Break were all supposed to be HSQs in more interesting locations, with three more lifts that would have helped a ton with traffic flow if they’d ever been built. Too late now with all the houses in the way.
I get the feeling that had ASC not run out of money while expanding southwards that some of the projects that have been done to the Canyons since then would’ve eventually been built as they are today: Tombstone would’ve eventually needed to become a six-pack due to being the only way to get to everything on the south side and the only way back to Red Pine Lodge. They probably would’ve still built Over And Out to ensure that everything south of Red Pine had a direct way back to the base at the end of the day or if Tombstone went down.
Just from this map, I think they would’ve still needed to build Timberline to provide a direct link from Tombstone to Iron Mountain since otherwise, the only way there would be via a trail down from Peak 5. And Timberline would also be necessary since otherwise, the only way back to Tombstone and Over and out from Iron Mountain, Dreamscape, Dreamcatcher, and Daybreak would be via that one egress high speed quad. I also think that Orange Bubble probably would’ve still been built in its current form at some point, with Raptor being repurposed elsewhere (although not being used for Dreamscape).
It seems like the list is missing Treasure Mountain’s lifts that were built in 1963 with the PHB gondola: the original Prospector double chair (https://exhibits.lib.utah.edu/s/ski-archives/item/139960) and two J-Bar (Silver King Novice, Tenderfoot). Source: The Wasatch Wave, 8/15/63). Also missing is the Skiers’ Subway that was opened with the Thaynes Canyon double on 12/15/64 (source: The New York Times, 12/13/64).
Prospector (was also called C-1), double, 1963-1974, likely a Stearns-Roger, 1307 ft vert., 5940 ft long, 550 ft/m, 174 chairs, 24 towers, 900 p/h, drive and tensioning at the bottom
Tenderfoot, J-Bar, 1963-????, Stearns-Roger, 1500 ft long, 150 ft vert.
Silver King, J-Bar, 1963-????, Stearns-Roger, 1600 ft long, 100 ft vert.
The PHB gondola only had a capacity of 300 p/h for opening day as the manufacturer out of SLC couldn’t deliver all cabins on time (they weren’t allowed to get them from Europe). They were able to deliver more cabins a few weeks later (cap. was raised to 500 p/h), but the full capacity was not reached until the 64/65 season.
Thaynes Canyon (C-2), double, 1964-1975, Stearns-Roger, 2760 ft long, 887 ft vert.
Skiers’ Subway, 1964-1969 (opening might have been delayed until 01/09/65), train/trolley, approx. 3 miles long, speed: 7 mph
Elevator (“Thaynes hoist”), 1964-1969, 1770 ft vert.
Source: various newspapers like The Wasatch Wave.
Does anyone know how to access flat iron lift from a road?
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It’s in The Colony which is private with a 24-hour gatehouse. Best bet is walking the mid-mountain trail to get there.
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Was the Tombstone HSQ reused somewhere else?
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https://liftblog.com/sunshine-express-steamboat-co/
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I think you forgot something. In your pics of First Time and Eagle, what you didn’t post is 3 Kings Double. Also, are there pics of Prospector Express, one of 2 yan high-speeds in Utah?
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Unless someone else took the photos you might be right.
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I think there is a photo of prospecter but I’m not sure I will try to post the photo on here
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I think that’s the Summit Express at Pico, VT
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I found a video with it in the background here is the link. https://youtube.com/watch?v=FkqsCJDta20
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Prospector is at 4:36 in that video.
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lmao That’s summit at Pico in Vermont. That is however a cool pre-retrofit picture of it.
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what ended up happening to the HSQ King Kong Express that was replaced with a HSS in 2015?
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It was relocated and became the new Motherlode Express. Tower foundations and tubes from the old CTEC lift were reused on the new Doppelmayr six pack, while the crossarms were used on the Motherlode.
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Do you mean “High meadow express”? Nice to see the new lifts on the spreadsheets!
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Stearns -roger lift was the old thaynes lift
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Any news on when they might add those upper mountain lifts above Flat Iron and Dreamcatcher?
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Are there any pictures of the crescent quad?
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So there is a rumor that the old gondola mid station still has the phb hall gondola stuff like drives and cabins
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What was Green horn replaced with?
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Greenhorn lift was replaced by the Red Hawk Quad, along with Tumbleweed. After 1997, the beginner area was moved to High Meadow and it didn’t make sense to keep two lifts for a small area.
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Maps for their lift lines:
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Do all the Garaventa CTEC high speed six packs have Leitner grips?
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Nope. Garaventa CTEC detachables use Garaventa detachable technology. They are similar in that they resemble eachother and operate almost the same, but they aren’t the same grips.
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No, it is a Garaventa design, specifically the AK400. CTEC used four different Garaventa grip designs from 1990-2004. The first/second is the AK4.0/AK4.1, which was seen commonly on High-speed quad lifts they built. For their 6 pack lifts, they must’ve felt they needed a heavier duty grip, so this one was used. When the Stealth III terminal design came out, the Garaventa AK460 grips replaced all of the earlier grips, and were used until CTEC’s detachable designs were phased out by Doppelmayr in 2004.
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OOPS, I mis-typed slightly. The Stealth II PCMR six packs have the Garaventa AK 680 grip (NOT the 400). The AK400 and 460 came later (with Stealth III/2000).
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What’s the difference with the AK-400 and the Agamatic grips?
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Doppelmayr has become as large as they are today mainly because they have taken over several companies in the past.
Agamatic was an Italian lift manufacturer, which designed and manufactured their own lifts before being bought out by Doppelmayr. The Agamatic grip was one such product. The Agamatic grips are offered primarily because they are a single position grip, which is in contrast to the DT series grips, which are dual position. The DT grips are an original Doppelmayr design.
Garaventa was a Swiss lift manufacturer, who is best known in North America for supplying parts on CTEC’s detachable lifts. In 1993 Garaventa purchased CTEC, creating Garaventa CTEC. CTEC’s lift designs were quite different from anything Garaventa, with the main thing being that CTEC used Garaventa’s detachable grips, including the AK-400 and 460, which visually look like Agamatic grips, and are both single position grips.
Doppelmayr acquired both of these firms. Agamatic first, Garaventa second. With Doppelmayr acquiring Garaventa, this meant that Garaventa CTEC and Doppelmayr USA needed to merge, forming Doppelmayr CTEC in 2002. With this, most of CTEC’s detachable products were phased out, although the fixed grip designs lasted longer, and Doppelmayr USA fixed grip installations are still different from the worldwide Doppelmayr fixed-grip product. Because of this, Garaventa grip designs haven’t been seen on a new North American installation since Collins at Alta was completed in 2004. Everything since then (except for the new D-Line which has it’s own grips and terminals) has been Uni-G/GS with either DT grips, or the Agamatic grips.
I think this has created some confusion because new lifts were built by essentially the same company with very similiar grips, leading to some thinking the Agamatic grip is a rebranded AK-460. It is not. Garaventa grips, including the AK-400/460, can still be found on MCS-series detachable lifts. No such installation has occurred in North America, however.
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The original Crescent was removed in 1998 or 1999.
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According to a timeline document I have, it was removed in 1998.
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my ideas for what they should do with new lifts at pc
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Opt. 1: I think you intend for a gondola to replace Crescent and be extended to the top of Bonanza, to relieve traffic on Silverlode. I’d keep Crescent as is, so that there is a chairlift for lapping the trails west of Treasure Hollow and south of CB’s Run.
Opt. 2: An up-and-over gondola directly from Miner’s Camp to the main village would allow someone more direct access to the Quicksilver Gondola for Canyons access without having to take chairlifts and ski down to Miner’s Camp. But it would also put more demand on Silverlode, and I can’t fathom the tall towers (and wind exposure) that would happen while crossing over King Con.
Opt. 3: I guess Opt. 3 would be something like a high speed quad to provide lapping service to most of Crescent’s pod in conjunction with Opt. 1?
Opt. 4: A fixed grip out of Miner’s Camp to take some traffic off of SIlverlode is practical, but I’d probably align it to end at the top of Crescent to reach more trails, rather than end it at the top of King Con.
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Option 1: I think it is a good idea presuming it is has a mid/angle station for offloading where Crescent’s top terminal currently resides to allow easier access to the Crescent pod. They could also then expand Summit House to use it during the summer, as it has pretty good views.
Option 2: I think this lift is pretty unnecessary because it is pretty easy to get in and out of Miner’s Camp and it would require tall towers to cross a number of lifts. This looks like a replacement for Eagle, which isn’t really necessary by itself but…
Option 3: I think this lift could make a lot of sense as a replacement for Eagle & Eaglet & 3 Kings if Park City wanted to create a mega-terrain park serviced by a high-speed lift.
Option 4: I think a fixed-grip lift to help alleviate the Silverlode traffic and get people back to the main base, similar to the new Over and Out across the mountain, would be useful.
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Would a lift from Park City Village to the top of King Kong work? Assuming that they would have to move Eagles base a little bit North East.
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It is absolutely practical. However, it would only serve terrain already accessible from Crescent and force skiers to go to either King Con or Miner’s Camp if they wish to use it as an out of base lift. These two areas are already very crowded. A Crescent upgrade would make more sense as it would provide the same out of base capacity increase but better distribute skiers across the mountain.
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Anybody know more info about the old mining gondola that used to run at the present park city? The towers still remain.
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The tram was built by riblet in 1901 last ran in 1952 the ore bins sat on the line until 1963 were they were Soto red in the bottom terminal in 1978or1979 the bottom terminal burnt down. Then in 1989 the top terminal and parts of the mill structures were torn down for the new lifts and runs the mine last operated in 1977-1978
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What about the proposed expansion above Flat Iron and Dreamcatcher?
It was mentioned in Peter’s “One Park City” article.
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Wasn’t that the proposal to build a lift that would make it possible to get from Day Break over to 9990 without using Tombstone?
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No. A lift from the base of Day Break/Dreamscape to bypass Tombstone was a separate earlier proposal years ago by WPC. It was to go from the base of Day Break to the top of Peak 5. Even though the proposal has been withdrawn, it would still be possible to build because the property lines were designed to accommodate the lift.
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The proposed expansion is tied up in Colony real estate. They are the landowners and will start building when their house construction moves that far up the canyon. Currently, they are entering phase 5F, which is likely the farthest they can get without needing to build a lift right above Flat Iron to keep ski-in/ski-out access. Phase 5H will likely require another lift up to pinecone ridge, roughly to the top of Half Moon/Quarter Moon. These two lifts are both accounted for in their master plan.
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they should build a lift from quicksliver canyons to top of iron mountain xpress
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That would be a bit of a redundant lift.
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Most skiers/boarders that are coming from Park City back to Canyons use Dreamcatcher to get to the Tombstone base. Also, most skiers/boarders want to ski down rather than riding Timberline across the Canyon. Since Park City is probably going to replace Dreamcatcher soon, that would make less of a demand for this lift to the top of Iron Mountain. If this lift were to be built, it would probably be used as more of a housing access lift, considering its proximity to the housing near there.
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Could it be that Crescent in 1989 was a relocation and not a new installation?
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is there any special reason of excluding “Rip Cord”? (revolving continuous rope at the bottom of Super Condor)
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I will add Silver Lining, the same thing at White Pine Lake near the Canyons base of Quicksilver.
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There’s also a private ski lift off the Upper White Pine trail thats some sort of lift on a track. Peter doesn’t include rope tows, pony tows, or carpets.
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Where exactly was the Poma platter at Park City? This lift doesn’t show up on any of the trail maps at the time. Was the lift private or for race training?
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There was a Poma lift at the Red Pine lodge on the Canyons side, just to the north of the gondola terminal originally in a learning area. I think there’s a carpet lift there now
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Does anyone else find it odd that Canyons did not re-use the original Tombstone High Speed quad to install Dreamcatcher? I feel like it would have cost them the same or even less to re-install it there. Was maintenance costs a concern? If the lift was bottom drive, how hard would it have been to convert ti to a top drive? Also I do know that at the time that Dreamcatcher was constructed, it was in the middle of nowhere. The Tombstone Quad had more than enough length to be re-installed over there and if they wanted to reduce capacity they could have always just not used some of the chairs.
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Tombstone was relocated to Steamboat where it replaced Sunshine. Back in 2006, Sunshine at Steamboat was much more heavily used than Dreamcatcher and in need of an upgrade. Honestly, it still may be more heavily used to this day, even after the Park City/Canyons connection.
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Steamboat more urgently needed a high speed quad for the Sunshine Express lift. The original Tombstone wasn’t such a bottleneck back at a time when most of the Canyons traffic stayed closer to the area around Saddleback and Super Condor.
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Remember at the time Dreamcatcher was built in 2006 there was no plan on the table to ever link up the Canyons and PCMR. When it was built it was the end of the earth miles away from the base area and was never expected to have any crowds, much less be the centrally located lift in a 7000-acre resort with a crowded restaurant at the top. Everything south of 9990 was built with the purpose of selling houses in the Colony, and American Skiing Company had long since run out of money to build out their master plan as they originally intended in the late 1990s, with every one of those south side lifts being detachables. Peak 5, Dreamscape, Dreamcatcher, and Day Break were all supposed to be HSQs in more interesting locations, with three more lifts that would have helped a ton with traffic flow if they’d ever been built. Too late now with all the houses in the way.
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I get the feeling that had ASC not run out of money while expanding southwards that some of the projects that have been done to the Canyons since then would’ve eventually been built as they are today: Tombstone would’ve eventually needed to become a six-pack due to being the only way to get to everything on the south side and the only way back to Red Pine Lodge. They probably would’ve still built Over And Out to ensure that everything south of Red Pine had a direct way back to the base at the end of the day or if Tombstone went down.
Just from this map, I think they would’ve still needed to build Timberline to provide a direct link from Tombstone to Iron Mountain since otherwise, the only way there would be via a trail down from Peak 5. And Timberline would also be necessary since otherwise, the only way back to Tombstone and Over and out from Iron Mountain, Dreamscape, Dreamcatcher, and Daybreak would be via that one egress high speed quad. I also think that Orange Bubble probably would’ve still been built in its current form at some point, with Raptor being repurposed elsewhere (although not being used for Dreamscape).
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Old Prospector express:
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It seems like the list is missing Treasure Mountain’s lifts that were built in 1963 with the PHB gondola: the original Prospector double chair (https://exhibits.lib.utah.edu/s/ski-archives/item/139960) and two J-Bar (Silver King Novice, Tenderfoot). Source: The Wasatch Wave, 8/15/63). Also missing is the Skiers’ Subway that was opened with the Thaynes Canyon double on 12/15/64 (source: The New York Times, 12/13/64).
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Prospector (was also called C-1), double, 1963-1974, likely a Stearns-Roger, 1307 ft vert., 5940 ft long, 550 ft/m, 174 chairs, 24 towers, 900 p/h, drive and tensioning at the bottom
Tenderfoot, J-Bar, 1963-????, Stearns-Roger, 1500 ft long, 150 ft vert.
Silver King, J-Bar, 1963-????, Stearns-Roger, 1600 ft long, 100 ft vert.
The PHB gondola only had a capacity of 300 p/h for opening day as the manufacturer out of SLC couldn’t deliver all cabins on time (they weren’t allowed to get them from Europe). They were able to deliver more cabins a few weeks later (cap. was raised to 500 p/h), but the full capacity was not reached until the 64/65 season.
Thaynes Canyon (C-2), double, 1964-1975, Stearns-Roger, 2760 ft long, 887 ft vert.
Skiers’ Subway, 1964-1969 (opening might have been delayed until 01/09/65), train/trolley, approx. 3 miles long, speed: 7 mph
Elevator (“Thaynes hoist”), 1964-1969, 1770 ft vert.
Source: various newspapers like The Wasatch Wave.
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