As with the other 3 ski areas in the Detroit metropolitan region, there was significant earth-moving to build the ski landscape we see today. Most of the work was done in the early 1970s when the music theatre was built (GREAT place to see a concert). Further changes were made in the early 2000s, maybe around 2003 when Chair 1 was installed.
All this earthwork has made verifying lift statistics maddening. Topo maps have changed dramatically over the years, and Pine Knob in particular is a place where nothing quite adds up right at all. Overhead map calculations on GoogleEarth and other websites like it aren’t perfect, but in my research on many other areas, it rarely leads to more than a few percent error in inclined lengths, and vertical rise usually matches topo maps pretty well when you consider things like adding a few feet for the ramps they build at the top terminals, small earth shaping around bottom terminals, etc.
Some highlights:
Chair 1 – SAM stats and the Doppelmayr CTEC Yearbook show 135/820, but the length appears more like 770, which is 6% error. I’m not sure topo maps capture the terrain well around the top of this lift, although the latest USGS updates were made well after this lift was installed.
Chair 2 – SAM stats show 260/1205, which seems WAY off. Historical overhead photos don’t clearly show that this lift was lengthened or shortened during its lifetime, and my estimates are more like 235/1005 (if topo maps are correct). Maybe this is a SAM or CTEC typo. Where things get a little weird is that in overhead photos since 2005, there is good alignment between them. In a 2002 photo and prior to that, the upper terminal looks to be a little further down the hill. I think this is a perspective issue, although all the base facilities and lower terminals line up well. Still, it would be good to get confirmation that this lift never has been modified in that way since there was significant dirt moved around that 2003 timeframe.
Chair 3 – SAM stats show 255/1045, which again highlights some questions on vertical and length. It is indeed slightly less vertical than Chair 2 since the bottom terminal sits a few feet higher and isn’t as scooped out as Chair 2. Still, topo maps make it look more like 230. Length is also more like 990. Do different manufacturers calculate inclined length differently (e.g. taking into account height of all sheaves vs. just lower to upper terminals, center of bullwheels to outer diameter, etc.)? I can’t seem to make 1045 work under any set of assumptions. That’s still over 5% error.
Chair 5 – Since the lift was shortened between 1983 and 1999 to allow for expansion of the snowmaking pond, the inclined length is more like 1595 now, with vertical estimated between 250 and 255. If Chair 3 is really 255, though, this lift will be more than 250-255, since it extends to lower base elevation than Chair 3. Also, I cannot tell if any vertical or length changes were made here when the new Skytrac drive or return terminals were installed, but my estimates are post-modification.
Chair 6 – For the same reason as Chair 5, the shortened length is now around 1620, and vertical is around 255. The same comments on vertical also applies here as for Chair 5. The Skytrac return terminal was installed in 2015, the last of the Chair 5/6 modifications.
Other than filling in dates of the major changes for Chairs 5 and 6 (new carriers, lower terminals moved uphill), I’d like to know if there was any additional vertical added to the top around 2003, or if that was set around 1972 after the major construction. Also, it would be good to know if these SAM stats on Chairs 1-3 are accurate, or if current topo maps and calculation tools tell the better story. I hope to also check the numbers in my next visit, hopefully in the next 2 years or so.
Follow-up to my earlier post…in between then and now, I visited Pine Knob and also found a topographic map that Oakland County has online.
The county topo map was done with aircraft scanning within the last 5 or 6 years, and has granularity down to 5 foot contour lines. Based on my in-person assessment, it looks quite accurate. The map closes the gaps regarding the top elevation and the elevation around the lift terminals. The peak is published in a few spots as 1286 ft (the highest point in all of Southeast Michigan), so if you add the ramp height on a few of the lifts, it’s about 1290 ft.
Some updates to my comments above:
Chair 1 – Vertical is around 120-125 ft, a bit short of the 135 ft published.
Chair 2 – Vertical is around 240-245 ft, short of the published 260 ft. I can’t yet speak to whether or not further earth was moved in the early 2000s and if the upper terminal was moved or not, but I don’t think this lift ever saw 260 ft vertical and certainly not 1205 ft length.
Chair 3 – Vertical is around 240 ft, short of the published 255 ft.
Chairs 5 and 6 – Vertical shakes out to around 260-265 ft for both lifts, with Chair 6 being maybe a few feet higher than Chair 5 due to the lower terminal being slightly further down the gentle slope at the bottom.
I am still working on a good solution for accurate elevation measurements that doesn’t include a significant investment, so I was not able to get accurate readings while I was there this time. So, the accurate map wins the day for now.
Lift Blog 
As with the other 3 ski areas in the Detroit metropolitan region, there was significant earth-moving to build the ski landscape we see today. Most of the work was done in the early 1970s when the music theatre was built (GREAT place to see a concert). Further changes were made in the early 2000s, maybe around 2003 when Chair 1 was installed.
All this earthwork has made verifying lift statistics maddening. Topo maps have changed dramatically over the years, and Pine Knob in particular is a place where nothing quite adds up right at all. Overhead map calculations on GoogleEarth and other websites like it aren’t perfect, but in my research on many other areas, it rarely leads to more than a few percent error in inclined lengths, and vertical rise usually matches topo maps pretty well when you consider things like adding a few feet for the ramps they build at the top terminals, small earth shaping around bottom terminals, etc.
Some highlights:
Chair 1 – SAM stats and the Doppelmayr CTEC Yearbook show 135/820, but the length appears more like 770, which is 6% error. I’m not sure topo maps capture the terrain well around the top of this lift, although the latest USGS updates were made well after this lift was installed.
Chair 2 – SAM stats show 260/1205, which seems WAY off. Historical overhead photos don’t clearly show that this lift was lengthened or shortened during its lifetime, and my estimates are more like 235/1005 (if topo maps are correct). Maybe this is a SAM or CTEC typo. Where things get a little weird is that in overhead photos since 2005, there is good alignment between them. In a 2002 photo and prior to that, the upper terminal looks to be a little further down the hill. I think this is a perspective issue, although all the base facilities and lower terminals line up well. Still, it would be good to get confirmation that this lift never has been modified in that way since there was significant dirt moved around that 2003 timeframe.
Chair 3 – SAM stats show 255/1045, which again highlights some questions on vertical and length. It is indeed slightly less vertical than Chair 2 since the bottom terminal sits a few feet higher and isn’t as scooped out as Chair 2. Still, topo maps make it look more like 230. Length is also more like 990. Do different manufacturers calculate inclined length differently (e.g. taking into account height of all sheaves vs. just lower to upper terminals, center of bullwheels to outer diameter, etc.)? I can’t seem to make 1045 work under any set of assumptions. That’s still over 5% error.
Chair 5 – Since the lift was shortened between 1983 and 1999 to allow for expansion of the snowmaking pond, the inclined length is more like 1595 now, with vertical estimated between 250 and 255. If Chair 3 is really 255, though, this lift will be more than 250-255, since it extends to lower base elevation than Chair 3. Also, I cannot tell if any vertical or length changes were made here when the new Skytrac drive or return terminals were installed, but my estimates are post-modification.
Chair 6 – For the same reason as Chair 5, the shortened length is now around 1620, and vertical is around 255. The same comments on vertical also applies here as for Chair 5. The Skytrac return terminal was installed in 2015, the last of the Chair 5/6 modifications.
Other than filling in dates of the major changes for Chairs 5 and 6 (new carriers, lower terminals moved uphill), I’d like to know if there was any additional vertical added to the top around 2003, or if that was set around 1972 after the major construction. Also, it would be good to know if these SAM stats on Chairs 1-3 are accurate, or if current topo maps and calculation tools tell the better story. I hope to also check the numbers in my next visit, hopefully in the next 2 years or so.
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Follow-up to my earlier post…in between then and now, I visited Pine Knob and also found a topographic map that Oakland County has online.
The county topo map was done with aircraft scanning within the last 5 or 6 years, and has granularity down to 5 foot contour lines. Based on my in-person assessment, it looks quite accurate. The map closes the gaps regarding the top elevation and the elevation around the lift terminals. The peak is published in a few spots as 1286 ft (the highest point in all of Southeast Michigan), so if you add the ramp height on a few of the lifts, it’s about 1290 ft.
Some updates to my comments above:
Chair 1 – Vertical is around 120-125 ft, a bit short of the 135 ft published.
Chair 2 – Vertical is around 240-245 ft, short of the published 260 ft. I can’t yet speak to whether or not further earth was moved in the early 2000s and if the upper terminal was moved or not, but I don’t think this lift ever saw 260 ft vertical and certainly not 1205 ft length.
Chair 3 – Vertical is around 240 ft, short of the published 255 ft.
Chairs 5 and 6 – Vertical shakes out to around 260-265 ft for both lifts, with Chair 6 being maybe a few feet higher than Chair 5 due to the lower terminal being slightly further down the gentle slope at the bottom.
I am still working on a good solution for accurate elevation measurements that doesn’t include a significant investment, so I was not able to get accurate readings while I was there this time. So, the accurate map wins the day for now.
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