TB-41 GripBottom terminal.Top terminal in the summer.Top terminal.Looking down the lift line.Bottom drive terminal.Breakover towers near the summit.Looking up the lift line from the bottom terminal.Looking up the line in the summer.Side view of the drive station.View up the line.Maintenance rail.View riding up.Arriving at the return.View down Sunnyside.Lower lift line.Most of the lift seen from Quicksilver.
They were white to begin with, so that’s cool. As I recall the towers were black, the terminal legs were blue (as was all the steel inside), and the towerheads were galvanized (zinc-coated). Boyne painted everything green somEtime after I left there (1997).
There’s this, Angel Express, and the White Peaks Express at Waterville. White Peaks is the only one of these three to be a top-drive, as Rainier and Angel are bottom-drive lifts. They are the precursor to the Competition terminal that came out a year later.
It’s a shame they didn’t continue to develop these, they’re surprisingly modern looking. I remember thinking it was some aftermarket retrofit the first time I saw it. Given Doppie was still making CLD-260s when these came out it seems like these would have given them a much more competitive edge as far as terminals go.
Agreed. I like this terminal design better than the clunky competition terminals that came out next. I also find it a shame that Poma didn’t introduce their Satellit Terminals to North America, but it was an exclusively European product. I just think the Satellit terminals look better than any North American product Poma produced.
If they were kept for a few more years, the American Eagle, Beaver Run SuperChair, North Ridge Express and Squaw One Express lifts would’ve all had these terminals too. It’s also likely that this design would’ve still been shortened to the two-mast design of the Challenger terminals.
The length was pretty conventional for that time. The equivalent Doppelmayr terminals were similar. If you ride a lift of that vintage you’ll notice the acceleration and deceleration is much slower and smoother. The ’88 terminals we’re talking about had exactly the same machinery inside as the Performance (what you’re calling an Alpha Falcon), so they’re the same length even if they don’t look it.
The Performant detachables (Flyer at Copper) had vault drives with tensioning at the return.
The Alpha Evolution terminals (Falcon Superchair at Breck) always had combined drive/tension terminals (obviously) and fixed returns.
Then there was Big Burn, which I don’t think there’s an actual name for. It was Poma’s first overhead drive detachable (fixed drive, tension at return).
The 1988 unnamed terminals seen on this lift were mechanically very similar, but they are fully enclosed. The masts look almost exactly like those on Big Burn (i.e. same arrangement and shape on both types of terminal). Also like Big Burn, they have a fixed drive and tensioned return. Even the trumpets are exactly the same. They seem to be structurally and mechanically the same, but the 1988 terminal is fully enclosed.
The Competition terminal came out in 1989. 5 detachable quads were built that year. American Eagle at Copper and Squaw One are the same; both have the same masts from the 1988 terminal and a fixed drive with a tensioned return. Eagle had Competition chairs, while Squaw One had 2nd Gen. Arceaux chairs. Another, the Louis Exp. at Mount St. Louis Moonstone, Ontario, is a bit different; it has a combined drive/tension terminal, and a fixed return. It had 2nd Gen. Arceaux chairs as well. This makes that lift Poma of America’s first fully enclosed overhead drive/tension detachable. The other two are Vanier and Cheval Blanc, both at Mont Ste Marie. These two are mechanically the same as Eagle and Squaw One, but only have a partial enclosure over the fixed drive terminal and a “pancake” enclosure at the tensioned return. Both have 2nd Gen. Arceaux quad chairs.
Some big changes were made in 1990. The Competition’s enclosure was changed slightly again. Two Competitions were installed (the original Green Mountain Express at Sugarbush, VT and Beaver Run at Breck). Both were mechanically and structurally the same as Eagle (same masts, fixed drive, tension at return), and both had Competition chairs. The Green Mountain Express was also the fastest in the world when it opened with a design speed of 1100fpm. The big change were the very first Challenger terminals, which were much more compact, got rid of the chain contour, and were dually tensioned.
One was the Zephyr Exp. at Winter Park, and the other is Mystic at Mt. Norquay, AB. These terminals were very small and only allowed for a line speed of 800fpm. Both had Competition chairs.
Poma’s only detachable in 1991 was a conversion of the High Lonesome fixed-grip quad at Winter Park. That lift also received very short early Challenger terminals capable of 800 fpm.
I think Poma definitely should have continued making these. They are much quieter, and more reliable than the old chain driven CLD 260’s that Doppelmayr was making at the time
It’s funny you say “reliable”. The mechanics (one in particular, no longer at CM) at the time said they were so scared of full speed that they kept burning motors up running slower than design speed. Not enough torque at 3.5-4 metres compared to 5, apparently. This is why we can’t have nice things.
It’s funny you mention that. On the one day this year I skied at Crystal Mountain (23 Mar), they had this lift running on diesel power at about 2.5 m/s. I asked the liftie why and was told there was an “electrical fault”, which could mean almost anything.
The first year we had that lift they blew up the electric motor and ran diesel most of the season. If the liftie said ‘electrical fault’ and the lift was on diesel, it could be the motor or the drive, but the rest of the electrical system is fully functional.
You ever hear the old Hogs Back lift (Riblet triple) at Stevens? It was a loud whiner on electric. You could hear it all over the front side. And, if it went on diesel, it was a deafening screamer and that’s all you heard on the front side. So glad when it was replaced.
The thing with that is that Doppelmayr’s Uni terminal came out soon after these were retired, and they were much more reliable than these for many reasons. I’m not saying they were reliable, I’m saying that they were reliable, relative to this and Poma’s Competition, which still ran chains. Chains are a lift mechanic’s nighmare.
I’m not surprised to hear about their plans to increase the gondola’s capacity and replace this chair. When I was here last April, REX was down with an electrical issue (later they had it running on diesel power at about 2.5 m/s) and green valley was also having some mechanical issues. This meant that the gondola was slammed with a bunch of people trying to get up to the top. Luckily, it wasn’t a Saturday!
Increasing gondola capacity so you have a straight shot to the top without having to wait a long time will be awesome, and, if it’s time after 33 years of service for a new high speed quad, that’s great too!
With how popular Crystal is with the local Seattle market, it’s really interesting to see how Stevens Pass and Crystal have taken almost opposite approaches. Skiing in the PNW is an awesomely unique experience and it’s great that it’s getting some love.
This lift is struggling, especially this season with significantly increased crowds. They are consistently operating at 650-700 fpm. Upper mountain was closed today because of strong wind, but they were doing testing and the people said there was a motor burn out at 750 fpm. Every time I’m there REX’s motor sounds like a dying horse. Like the pitch keeps on changing and you can tell it’s struggling hard. New lift here soon before something catastrophic happens. Other places can get away with running detachables this old because they maintain them well, but not this lift at all!
Sounds like less of a maintenance issue and more of an electrical issue. There’s very little a ski area electrician can do to fix a motor; they need to be sent into a motor shop for major repairs. On the drive side, if the drive needs tuning to help the motor out that’s also typically an outside contractor, whether directly from Poma or from a specialty contractor.
You’ve been there more recently and have heard more than I have. Still, unless you’ve heard direct information from CM’s maintenance staff I’d hold off on statements like ‘it’s gonna fall apart’. If it was, my counterparts would definitely shut the lift down until they can rectify the situation. What they’re testing is all of the various inputs and outputs that control the motor speed and torque, as well as the motor itself. They’re trying to nail down what the actual issue is, so that they can better identify how to fix it. I’d cut them some slack.
It’s also a capacity thing too though. The lines for this lift get crazy long and often span up the hill. With the lift running as slow as it is too, they need to do something. Send me a message on Instagram @trail_reviews and I will send you a video of the lifts drive terminal sound if you’d like.
The lines for this lift have been crazy long since day one, as were the ones on its predecessor. I remember skiing down lower Lucky Shot/upper Gandy’s Run and running smack into the line before the end of the run. This has always been one of the most popular lifts in the state of Washington.
That’s a bit of a nebulous statement. It’s no mystery that Crystal wants to replace this lift at some point in the near future, but to be honest, it doesn’t sound like the issues it’s having right now warrant such an urgent replacement. They’re smart enough to not run it if there is some urgent pressing issue.
Nice to see this back in its original white. Curious if they painted over the ‘Poma Blue’ inside. So many lifts, especially detaches, were blue inside from the late 70s throught the early 90s.
And now there are 2. White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley has been scrapped. This leaves just 2 POMA pre-Competition model lifts with this style terminals. I know everyone wants REX replaced, but instead of scrapping it, how about it be moved to the Quicksilver alignment or over to East Peak at HYAK (Summit East) where there are other POMA detachable lifts nearby.
It won’t be worth it to move it. It’ll have to be upgraded to the current ANSI standard and reengineered at a minimum. As more lifts of this vintage are replaced, it will be more difficult to get parts as Poma won’t have as much reason to keep them in stock. With this lift being a winter/summer lift for most of its life, it also has super-high hours. While I like this generation of lifts after working on or around them most of my career, they’re just getting old and new technology is making them obsolete.
Small correction that you may not care to worry about, Peter: the “View down Sunnyside” in the third to last photo is more correctly the view down Breakover. Sunnyside is the old Chair 2 liftline a handful of turns skiers’ left of Breakover. The current map is kinda vague, which is annoying cos they’re definitely two distinct and diverging lines. Breakover is a double fall line that pulls you skiers’ right toward the Rex liftline and then on past and toward the lower section of The Doors, whereas Sunnyside is a little more direct and pulls skiers’ left toward Lower Memorial Forest and the top of Old 1/bottom of Old 2. Obviously things change, so maybe in the years I’ve been in the desert they’ve just moved names, I don’t know. I hate change. Get off my lawn.
WJM – The winds that close Mountaintop regularly exceed a 6 pack’s operating window as well. The heavier chairs might move less, but 60+ will close any chair, and that happens quite a bit. More than most folks seem to know. 90 to 100 mph winds are recorded once or twice nearly every winter, some winters many times. 6 packs made sense (still do) for 9 and 11 for capacity and for all those marginal days when Upper Mountain is closed for wind. They are protected enough that 60+ almost never happens. I’m betting keeping the status quo on Rex won’t hurt, though. Very few days are in the magic window where a 6p can spin when a quad can’t. I still think East Peak especially, and maybe even a Kelly’s Gap chair, would do more for Crystal than simply replacing Rex, but I am not their target market and never was. Not even the old Stockholders’ collective.
Alterra typically announces their projects after the others in late March. I’m hearing Mammoth, Sugarbush, Stratton plus 3-5 Expanded Excellence lifts at Deer Valley for ’24. Hopefully a couple more surprise me.
Not happening in ’24 either. My counterparts were so sure of the timeline (and their management was as well) that they cancelled a parts order from Poma- then were told they need to keep it spinning at least another season.
What would be really funny is if the Rainer Express gets replaced with a six-person bubble chair because then all three lifts with that one 1988 poma terminal model will have been replaced with six-place bubble chairlifts. After all, if you think about it, Waterville Valley’s White Peak Express chairlift was replaced in 2022 with the MND bubble six-place chairlift and Banff Sunshine Village’s Angel Express is getting replaced summer of 2024 with an LPA six-place bubble lift (Provided that nothing unexpected happens). So if this were to get replaced soon with some sort of bubble six-place chairlift, that would be a huge irony!
Yes. Years ago a carrier like this at another resort suffered a failure where the bail broke. Fortunately it was on the load ramp. Anyone with those carriers had to install the cables as soon as Poma could package up the kits and get them to us. We installed them on 328 chairs in the winter, over a week’s worth of early mornings. It was a blast.
No. That’s a push block. It’s there to give the cadence and conveyor chains something to grab on to so they don’t wear out the bail. The chair 1 target is simply another version of this block, but its sole purpose in life is to trip a sensor to restart the chair spacing counter. Any lift with chains doesn’t need that, because they have no PLC-controlled spacer.
does bring up an interesting idea of how old detach lifts maintained spacing mechanically rather than electronically. Seems like the Poma ones use a chain that has intermittently spaced out catches on the chain, which Doppelmayer has a continuous array of links? Its kinda hard to describe what I mean but I wonder how well that would actually work. This also means that when switching to tire contours on these old lifts you would probably need a whole new spacing system right? Idk enough about this but it seems kinda like a simple form of mechanical computing which always interests me.
Doppelmayrs have one terminal with spaced ”teeth” to control spacing, while the return terminal has a continuous belt to move the chairs around the contour. No idea about Pomas since I never saw a chain driven Poma detach.
Doppelmayr and Poma had systems identical in concept and only slightly different in execution. The bottom terminal (regardless of drive location) had a chain with only a few evenly spaced sets of fingers to move the chair around the contour, while the top had a set of fingers on every link. Doppelmayr had plastic fingers and Poma had steel with plastic blocks on the bottom fingers. Both were bullwheel-driven PTO systems (although the drive terminal on an Alpha Evolutif was more involved since the bullwheel wasn’t actually *in* the terminal). The speed at which the cadence chain ran determined the chair spacing- the faster it moved, the closer together the chairs would be. At the top the chain ran at a predetermined average speed and only turned the chairs around. Determining chain speed for a given chair space was a matter of simple algebra with only a few variables- the distance a chair would move around the contour relative to the distance the rope moved around the bullwheel, the rate of acceleration in the tire bank, and the desired nominal chair space. There’s probably more but that’s the gist.
Yes, when converting to a tire turnaround you would need to install more software and electronics. When we did the Flyer the add-on subroutine didn’t work all that well the first season, and we ended up getting GJ to come modify it. I also had to play around with the pulley ratios on the last few tires of the original section at the bottom to get the contour speed right- the spacing on tire contours is at the top and the spacer couldn’t correct for the slower tires at the bottom. Good thing we had spare pulleys on the shelf….
It sounds like this lift is finally going to be replaced this summer. Rumor has it that Alterra is going to stick with a quad and not go to a six, which is absolutely ridiculous. Even if they want to keep capacity flat, a six with wider spacing is a better choice. They should really just ask sister resort Solitude how relieved they are that they switched Eagle’s replacement from a quad to a six.
REX isn’t worth a D-Line. It’s a short ride (so no major benefit to fancy chairs or bubbles) and it’s not like there are huge capacity constraints here even on a busy day (so no major benefit or need for more horsepower or efficiency). Maybe would be worthwhile to consider for a Mt. Rainier Gondola replacement, though.
I will say I don’t buy the argument that a sixer would overload the summit here, though.
Six packs are being used due to their weight as they are less likely to be on wind hold. This is why a lot of ski areas have gone with them, even though their capacity is 2400 or less per hour.
@Cameron: I agree with you. I’m saying I don’t understand why the replacement lift here is going to be a quad instead of a sixer, for the reasons you mention.
Some informed context from a member of the senior management team at CM: they are reusing the entire support superstructure and dirtworks for the top terminal, which was engineered for the existing quad and mostly likely without consideration for capacity upgrades. They could not find a finalised plan for the groundwork under and around the three-pillar footing structure and did not want to guess at what they’d find once an big ol’ excavator was brought up and somebody started pulling the levers. If you were around lift construction before about 2010, you know it was engaged in with more than a dash of on-the-spot figuring, so to speak. (We re-engineered the tower footings for Chair 3, for instance, mid-summer of 2000, after one of them blew out while flying mud and almost buried two mechanics, me, and my sister-in-law-in-law. Lotta fun frantically digging already-setting concrete, if you were wondering.) It still requires some flexibility even with all of the lessons learned and the different tactics that our more modern world demands. In 1988, there coulda been all sorta sight-reading goin on, and CM/Alterra/LPOA did not want to open a possibly year-long can o’ worms. The top terminal of Rex being on a steep AF side-hill (you can see all the regrading in the summer photos above), there would necessarily either need to be many-stories-tall support masts to hit any sort of bedrock on a ridgeline that is mostly shale shavings, or tons and tons of backfill with a large retention wall just as Poma/CM did back in ’88. None of which would benefit from mid-July-gotta-get-this-open-by-Thanksgiving improvisation. Lastly, should you wonder why they didn’t just put the top terminal somewheres else, remember that CM is hemmed in by the Park on that ridgeline, and JK’s oh-so-necessary vanity project everyone calls the Ganjala buried the spot where old Chair 2 sat, so without a ton of expensive realignment, not to mention a bunch of subalpine fir being cut by my 77 year old father, you get what you get and you’ll like it.
I don’t think this needs to be a quad. It only really gets a line on really busy powder days during the initial uploading then it usually has no line. It also does not go on windhold very often.
With respect with the summit capacity, it has been stated by the managers on the storm podcast that they want to upgrade the gondola capacity (either via upgrade but I think replacement is more likely) and the current gondola will move to serve campbell basin from the base area. If this plan comes to fruition I think a quad still makes sense here.
In my opinion though, leaving the gondola as is would be fine if we get a Kelley’s Gap chair that provides direct access from B-Lot to Green Valley and Northway in one chair ride as that will take a ton of pressure off on big days. IMO we probably see Bullion Basin or Campbell Basin gondola before that though.
Another Unnamed Poma removed, one left. Rainier Express is set to be replaced, White Peaks Express is gone, and there’s only one left. I forget where that one is. Too bad they don’t have their own types of chair or grips.
Lift Blog 
The stations were painted white sometime after these pictures were taken. The pylons remain green however.
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They were white to begin with, so that’s cool. As I recall the towers were black, the terminal legs were blue (as was all the steel inside), and the towerheads were galvanized (zinc-coated). Boyne painted everything green somEtime after I left there (1997).
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These types of terminals are quite rare. Besides the one at sunshine village in BC, do any of you guys know where some others are?
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There’s this, Angel Express, and the White Peaks Express at Waterville. White Peaks is the only one of these three to be a top-drive, as Rainier and Angel are bottom-drive lifts. They are the precursor to the Competition terminal that came out a year later.
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It’s a shame they didn’t continue to develop these, they’re surprisingly modern looking. I remember thinking it was some aftermarket retrofit the first time I saw it. Given Doppie was still making CLD-260s when these came out it seems like these would have given them a much more competitive edge as far as terminals go.
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Agreed. I like this terminal design better than the clunky competition terminals that came out next. I also find it a shame that Poma didn’t introduce their Satellit Terminals to North America, but it was an exclusively European product. I just think the Satellit terminals look better than any North American product Poma produced.
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The only lift I can think of in North America that comes close to having the look of the Satellit terminal is the Peak Chair, which is a Doppelmayr.
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If they were kept for a few more years, the American Eagle, Beaver Run SuperChair, North Ridge Express and Squaw One Express lifts would’ve all had these terminals too. It’s also likely that this design would’ve still been shortened to the two-mast design of the Challenger terminals.
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They’re pretty long though. Albeit, shorter than an Alpha Falcon, but the soon to be released Challenger and UNI are much more compact than these are.
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The length was pretty conventional for that time. The equivalent Doppelmayr terminals were similar. If you ride a lift of that vintage you’ll notice the acceleration and deceleration is much slower and smoother. The ’88 terminals we’re talking about had exactly the same machinery inside as the Performance (what you’re calling an Alpha Falcon), so they’re the same length even if they don’t look it.
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The top terminal of the Stratton gondola has a similar heptagonal shape to the Satellit, albeit without the back window. http://www.chairlift.org/pics/stratton/str86.jpg
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The Performant detachables (Flyer at Copper) had vault drives with tensioning at the return.
The Alpha Evolution terminals (Falcon Superchair at Breck) always had combined drive/tension terminals (obviously) and fixed returns.
Then there was Big Burn, which I don’t think there’s an actual name for. It was Poma’s first overhead drive detachable (fixed drive, tension at return).
The 1988 unnamed terminals seen on this lift were mechanically very similar, but they are fully enclosed. The masts look almost exactly like those on Big Burn (i.e. same arrangement and shape on both types of terminal). Also like Big Burn, they have a fixed drive and tensioned return. Even the trumpets are exactly the same. They seem to be structurally and mechanically the same, but the 1988 terminal is fully enclosed.
The Competition terminal came out in 1989. 5 detachable quads were built that year. American Eagle at Copper and Squaw One are the same; both have the same masts from the 1988 terminal and a fixed drive with a tensioned return. Eagle had Competition chairs, while Squaw One had 2nd Gen. Arceaux chairs. Another, the Louis Exp. at Mount St. Louis Moonstone, Ontario, is a bit different; it has a combined drive/tension terminal, and a fixed return. It had 2nd Gen. Arceaux chairs as well. This makes that lift Poma of America’s first fully enclosed overhead drive/tension detachable. The other two are Vanier and Cheval Blanc, both at Mont Ste Marie. These two are mechanically the same as Eagle and Squaw One, but only have a partial enclosure over the fixed drive terminal and a “pancake” enclosure at the tensioned return. Both have 2nd Gen. Arceaux quad chairs.
Some big changes were made in 1990. The Competition’s enclosure was changed slightly again. Two Competitions were installed (the original Green Mountain Express at Sugarbush, VT and Beaver Run at Breck). Both were mechanically and structurally the same as Eagle (same masts, fixed drive, tension at return), and both had Competition chairs. The Green Mountain Express was also the fastest in the world when it opened with a design speed of 1100fpm. The big change were the very first Challenger terminals, which were much more compact, got rid of the chain contour, and were dually tensioned.
One was the Zephyr Exp. at Winter Park, and the other is Mystic at Mt. Norquay, AB. These terminals were very small and only allowed for a line speed of 800fpm. Both had Competition chairs.
Poma’s only detachable in 1991 was a conversion of the High Lonesome fixed-grip quad at Winter Park. That lift also received very short early Challenger terminals capable of 800 fpm.
The first real year for the Challengers was 1992.
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I think Poma definitely should have continued making these. They are much quieter, and more reliable than the old chain driven CLD 260’s that Doppelmayr was making at the time
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It’s funny you say “reliable”. The mechanics (one in particular, no longer at CM) at the time said they were so scared of full speed that they kept burning motors up running slower than design speed. Not enough torque at 3.5-4 metres compared to 5, apparently. This is why we can’t have nice things.
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It’s funny you mention that. On the one day this year I skied at Crystal Mountain (23 Mar), they had this lift running on diesel power at about 2.5 m/s. I asked the liftie why and was told there was an “electrical fault”, which could mean almost anything.
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The first year we had that lift they blew up the electric motor and ran diesel most of the season. If the liftie said ‘electrical fault’ and the lift was on diesel, it could be the motor or the drive, but the rest of the electrical system is fully functional.
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This is possibly the loudest lift i have ever been around
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You ever hear the old Hogs Back lift (Riblet triple) at Stevens? It was a loud whiner on electric. You could hear it all over the front side. And, if it went on diesel, it was a deafening screamer and that’s all you heard on the front side. So glad when it was replaced.
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The thing with that is that Doppelmayr’s Uni terminal came out soon after these were retired, and they were much more reliable than these for many reasons. I’m not saying they were reliable, I’m saying that they were reliable, relative to this and Poma’s Competition, which still ran chains. Chains are a lift mechanic’s nighmare.
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Loved listening to the podcast with Frank.
I’m not surprised to hear about their plans to increase the gondola’s capacity and replace this chair. When I was here last April, REX was down with an electrical issue (later they had it running on diesel power at about 2.5 m/s) and green valley was also having some mechanical issues. This meant that the gondola was slammed with a bunch of people trying to get up to the top. Luckily, it wasn’t a Saturday!
Increasing gondola capacity so you have a straight shot to the top without having to wait a long time will be awesome, and, if it’s time after 33 years of service for a new high speed quad, that’s great too!
With how popular Crystal is with the local Seattle market, it’s really interesting to see how Stevens Pass and Crystal have taken almost opposite approaches. Skiing in the PNW is an awesomely unique experience and it’s great that it’s getting some love.
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There was a Jerry of the Day story with 5 skiers on a single chair
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This lift is struggling, especially this season with significantly increased crowds. They are consistently operating at 650-700 fpm. Upper mountain was closed today because of strong wind, but they were doing testing and the people said there was a motor burn out at 750 fpm. Every time I’m there REX’s motor sounds like a dying horse. Like the pitch keeps on changing and you can tell it’s struggling hard. New lift here soon before something catastrophic happens. Other places can get away with running detachables this old because they maintain them well, but not this lift at all!
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Sounds like less of a maintenance issue and more of an electrical issue. There’s very little a ski area electrician can do to fix a motor; they need to be sent into a motor shop for major repairs. On the drive side, if the drive needs tuning to help the motor out that’s also typically an outside contractor, whether directly from Poma or from a specialty contractor.
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Still the lift sounds like its gonna fall apart. Something major needs to happen soon
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You’ve been there more recently and have heard more than I have. Still, unless you’ve heard direct information from CM’s maintenance staff I’d hold off on statements like ‘it’s gonna fall apart’. If it was, my counterparts would definitely shut the lift down until they can rectify the situation. What they’re testing is all of the various inputs and outputs that control the motor speed and torque, as well as the motor itself. They’re trying to nail down what the actual issue is, so that they can better identify how to fix it. I’d cut them some slack.
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Was on REX a few weeks ago and it sounded fine under a normal load. Work may have occurred between then and now.
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It’s also a capacity thing too though. The lines for this lift get crazy long and often span up the hill. With the lift running as slow as it is too, they need to do something. Send me a message on Instagram @trail_reviews and I will send you a video of the lifts drive terminal sound if you’d like.
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The lines for this lift have been crazy long since day one, as were the ones on its predecessor. I remember skiing down lower Lucky Shot/upper Gandy’s Run and running smack into the line before the end of the run. This has always been one of the most popular lifts in the state of Washington.
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My friend who grooms up there told me this info btw
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That’s a bit of a nebulous statement. It’s no mystery that Crystal wants to replace this lift at some point in the near future, but to be honest, it doesn’t sound like the issues it’s having right now warrant such an urgent replacement. They’re smart enough to not run it if there is some urgent pressing issue.
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Nice to see this back in its original white. Curious if they painted over the ‘Poma Blue’ inside. So many lifts, especially detaches, were blue inside from the late 70s throught the early 90s.
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And now there are 2. White Peaks Express at Waterville Valley has been scrapped. This leaves just 2 POMA pre-Competition model lifts with this style terminals. I know everyone wants REX replaced, but instead of scrapping it, how about it be moved to the Quicksilver alignment or over to East Peak at HYAK (Summit East) where there are other POMA detachable lifts nearby.
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It won’t be worth it to move it. It’ll have to be upgraded to the current ANSI standard and reengineered at a minimum. As more lifts of this vintage are replaced, it will be more difficult to get parts as Poma won’t have as much reason to keep them in stock. With this lift being a winter/summer lift for most of its life, it also has super-high hours. While I like this generation of lifts after working on or around them most of my career, they’re just getting old and new technology is making them obsolete.
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REX replaced Iceberg Ridge.
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Small correction that you may not care to worry about, Peter: the “View down Sunnyside” in the third to last photo is more correctly the view down Breakover. Sunnyside is the old Chair 2 liftline a handful of turns skiers’ left of Breakover. The current map is kinda vague, which is annoying cos they’re definitely two distinct and diverging lines. Breakover is a double fall line that pulls you skiers’ right toward the Rex liftline and then on past and toward the lower section of The Doors, whereas Sunnyside is a little more direct and pulls skiers’ left toward Lower Memorial Forest and the top of Old 1/bottom of Old 2. Obviously things change, so maybe in the years I’ve been in the desert they’ve just moved names, I don’t know. I hate change. Get off my lawn.
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Lift maintenance says that Rainier Express will be updated next summer. It will continue as a 4 person chair.
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Not 2023. Hopefully 2024.
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That’s what I heard last fall as well, from lift maintenance as it happens.
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It’s on the 2024 new lifts list.
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Why are they replacing with a 4 and not 6? Seems like a 6 at 2800 PPH would be better for the windy conditions that closes REX sometimes.
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WJM – The winds that close Mountaintop regularly exceed a 6 pack’s operating window as well. The heavier chairs might move less, but 60+ will close any chair, and that happens quite a bit. More than most folks seem to know. 90 to 100 mph winds are recorded once or twice nearly every winter, some winters many times. 6 packs made sense (still do) for 9 and 11 for capacity and for all those marginal days when Upper Mountain is closed for wind. They are protected enough that 60+ almost never happens. I’m betting keeping the status quo on Rex won’t hurt, though. Very few days are in the magic window where a 6p can spin when a quad can’t. I still think East Peak especially, and maybe even a Kelly’s Gap chair, would do more for Crystal than simply replacing Rex, but I am not their target market and never was. Not even the old Stockholders’ collective.
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Any news here? Pretty surprised to see it fall off again.
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Alterra typically announces their projects after the others in late March. I’m hearing Mammoth, Sugarbush, Stratton plus 3-5 Expanded Excellence lifts at Deer Valley for ’24. Hopefully a couple more surprise me.
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Wait, are they replacing this?
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When this gets replaced, Angel will be the last one :(
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It seems that the Alterra new lift announcement will either be the second half of this week or the first half of next week.
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March 19th maybe.
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I would be intrested to know when Alterra makes an anoucement for replacement.
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Not happening in ’24 either. My counterparts were so sure of the timeline (and their management was as well) that they cancelled a parts order from Poma- then were told they need to keep it spinning at least another season.
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What would be really funny is if the Rainer Express gets replaced with a six-person bubble chair because then all three lifts with that one 1988 poma terminal model will have been replaced with six-place bubble chairlifts. After all, if you think about it, Waterville Valley’s White Peak Express chairlift was replaced in 2022 with the MND bubble six-place chairlift and Banff Sunshine Village’s Angel Express is getting replaced summer of 2024 with an LPA six-place bubble lift (Provided that nothing unexpected happens). So if this were to get replaced soon with some sort of bubble six-place chairlift, that would be a huge irony!
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Has anyone else noticed how similar these (beautiful) terminals look super similar to the Uni-G?
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They look really similar to the launch version of the UNI-G
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Now only one chairlift with this type of terminal remains as both White Peaks and Angel Express have been replaced with bubble six packs.
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Angel was sold.
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Where???
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Castle Mountain, AB
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Yup, heading to Castle, the install timeline was not yet confirmed, but when it gets installed, it will possibly look different than now.
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And now there are none.
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As I said before, there still is one left at Castle Mountain.
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Why do the chairs on Rex have the cables under the seat? I assume it is to protect from some known structural issue. Can anyone explain it?
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Yes. Years ago a carrier like this at another resort suffered a failure where the bail broke. Fortunately it was on the load ramp. Anyone with those carriers had to install the cables as soon as Poma could package up the kits and get them to us. We installed them on 328 chairs in the winter, over a week’s worth of early mornings. It was a blast.
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Is the grip In pic 1 chair 1? I think that because of that magnet(?) thats always on every Poma/LP chair 1.
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No. That’s a push block. It’s there to give the cadence and conveyor chains something to grab on to so they don’t wear out the bail. The chair 1 target is simply another version of this block, but its sole purpose in life is to trip a sensor to restart the chair spacing counter. Any lift with chains doesn’t need that, because they have no PLC-controlled spacer.
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does bring up an interesting idea of how old detach lifts maintained spacing mechanically rather than electronically. Seems like the Poma ones use a chain that has intermittently spaced out catches on the chain, which Doppelmayer has a continuous array of links? Its kinda hard to describe what I mean but I wonder how well that would actually work. This also means that when switching to tire contours on these old lifts you would probably need a whole new spacing system right? Idk enough about this but it seems kinda like a simple form of mechanical computing which always interests me.
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Doppelmayrs have one terminal with spaced ”teeth” to control spacing, while the return terminal has a continuous belt to move the chairs around the contour. No idea about Pomas since I never saw a chain driven Poma detach.
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Doppelmayr and Poma had systems identical in concept and only slightly different in execution. The bottom terminal (regardless of drive location) had a chain with only a few evenly spaced sets of fingers to move the chair around the contour, while the top had a set of fingers on every link. Doppelmayr had plastic fingers and Poma had steel with plastic blocks on the bottom fingers. Both were bullwheel-driven PTO systems (although the drive terminal on an Alpha Evolutif was more involved since the bullwheel wasn’t actually *in* the terminal). The speed at which the cadence chain ran determined the chair spacing- the faster it moved, the closer together the chairs would be. At the top the chain ran at a predetermined average speed and only turned the chairs around. Determining chain speed for a given chair space was a matter of simple algebra with only a few variables- the distance a chair would move around the contour relative to the distance the rope moved around the bullwheel, the rate of acceleration in the tire bank, and the desired nominal chair space. There’s probably more but that’s the gist.
Yes, when converting to a tire turnaround you would need to install more software and electronics. When we did the Flyer the add-on subroutine didn’t work all that well the first season, and we ended up getting GJ to come modify it. I also had to play around with the pulley ratios on the last few tires of the original section at the bottom to get the contour speed right- the spacing on tire contours is at the top and the spacer couldn’t correct for the slower tires at the bottom. Good thing we had spare pulleys on the shelf….
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That is very interesting, I guess you really had to get the gear ratios right to get the cadence chain to move in the correct relation to drive speed.
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It sounds like this lift is finally going to be replaced this summer. Rumor has it that Alterra is going to stick with a quad and not go to a six, which is absolutely ridiculous. Even if they want to keep capacity flat, a six with wider spacing is a better choice. They should really just ask sister resort Solitude how relieved they are that they switched Eagle’s replacement from a quad to a six.
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Should have stuck with Boyne and you would have got a fancy new D-Line with bubbles
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I realise Crystal’s trying to fancify itself, but no.
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No I meant that they were owned by Boyne a couple years back and that maybe if Boyne still did it could have been
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I understood what you were saying, but still no. A D-line wouldn’t (in my humble opinion) fit the vibe.
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REX isn’t worth a D-Line. It’s a short ride (so no major benefit to fancy chairs or bubbles) and it’s not like there are huge capacity constraints here even on a busy day (so no major benefit or need for more horsepower or efficiency). Maybe would be worthwhile to consider for a Mt. Rainier Gondola replacement, though.
I will say I don’t buy the argument that a sixer would overload the summit here, though.
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Six packs are being used due to their weight as they are less likely to be on wind hold. This is why a lot of ski areas have gone with them, even though their capacity is 2400 or less per hour.
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@Cameron: I agree with you. I’m saying I don’t understand why the replacement lift here is going to be a quad instead of a sixer, for the reasons you mention.
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Some informed context from a member of the senior management team at CM: they are reusing the entire support superstructure and dirtworks for the top terminal, which was engineered for the existing quad and mostly likely without consideration for capacity upgrades. They could not find a finalised plan for the groundwork under and around the three-pillar footing structure and did not want to guess at what they’d find once an big ol’ excavator was brought up and somebody started pulling the levers. If you were around lift construction before about 2010, you know it was engaged in with more than a dash of on-the-spot figuring, so to speak. (We re-engineered the tower footings for Chair 3, for instance, mid-summer of 2000, after one of them blew out while flying mud and almost buried two mechanics, me, and my sister-in-law-in-law. Lotta fun frantically digging already-setting concrete, if you were wondering.) It still requires some flexibility even with all of the lessons learned and the different tactics that our more modern world demands. In 1988, there coulda been all sorta sight-reading goin on, and CM/Alterra/LPOA did not want to open a possibly year-long can o’ worms. The top terminal of Rex being on a steep AF side-hill (you can see all the regrading in the summer photos above), there would necessarily either need to be many-stories-tall support masts to hit any sort of bedrock on a ridgeline that is mostly shale shavings, or tons and tons of backfill with a large retention wall just as Poma/CM did back in ’88. None of which would benefit from mid-July-gotta-get-this-open-by-Thanksgiving improvisation. Lastly, should you wonder why they didn’t just put the top terminal somewheres else, remember that CM is hemmed in by the Park on that ridgeline, and JK’s oh-so-necessary vanity project everyone calls the Ganjala buried the spot where old Chair 2 sat, so without a ton of expensive realignment, not to mention a bunch of subalpine fir being cut by my 77 year old father, you get what you get and you’ll like it.
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I don’t think this needs to be a quad. It only really gets a line on really busy powder days during the initial uploading then it usually has no line. It also does not go on windhold very often.
With respect with the summit capacity, it has been stated by the managers on the storm podcast that they want to upgrade the gondola capacity (either via upgrade but I think replacement is more likely) and the current gondola will move to serve campbell basin from the base area. If this plan comes to fruition I think a quad still makes sense here.
In my opinion though, leaving the gondola as is would be fine if we get a Kelley’s Gap chair that provides direct access from B-Lot to Green Valley and Northway in one chair ride as that will take a ton of pressure off on big days. IMO we probably see Bullion Basin or Campbell Basin gondola before that though.
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Another Unnamed Poma removed, one left. Rainier Express is set to be replaced, White Peaks Express is gone, and there’s only one left. I forget where that one is. Too bad they don’t have their own types of chair or grips.
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Correction, ALL 3 of these Unnamed Poma terminals are gone. Poma should have built more of these, they actually looked decent.
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No! The last one is at Castle Mountain, AB as the Stagecoach express, relocated from Sunshine Village in 2025.
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I wonder how long Stagecoach Express will last before a replacement.
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Since the lift was apparently refurbished by Leitner-Poma this past season, I expect it will last for another 20 or so years.
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NOO ITS GONE! THERES NO MORE OF THESE TERMINALS😭
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One still remains – Angel Express from Banff Sunshine is being relocated to Castle Mountain.
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This has turned into quite the controversy…
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