Think about this, every lift that has run in the spot where Creekside gondola operates has been removed due to a mechanical malfunction. The original gondola suffered a fatal grip failure, and was removed. Then, Yan made Quicksilver, which also had issues regarding the grip. Now, Creekside Gondola has TB-41s, which have fallen off of the line in the past, like when that chair fell off of the old Harmony Express. Funny coincidence.
Didn’t know that. I think those grips have had issues in the past though on other lifts, Don’t remember the exact lifts, but I recall a few lifts that had issues regarding the grip.
If I recall correctly, a chair fell off Timberline’s Magic Mile Quad a few years ago. It’s a 1992 Poma 1st gen. Challenger with TB-41s and Competition chairs. That’s the only incident I can think of.
That’s a pretty nebulous statement. You may be referring to an incident at Mt. Hood where a chair fell from a maintenance oversight…not a grip issue.
Not a TB-41 issue.
Fair enough. I was under the impression that the TB-41s had had issues in the past with the grip itself, but it sounds like these was due to other conditions. Thanks for notifying me of that.
Here’s a good shot of Killington’s Superstar Quad (1987 Yan CLD4):
and the upper lift line of Superstar:
I love how they say “state of the art detachable quads” when in reality they were death traps that had to be rebuilt after only a few years of service.
There are a few more good shots of Superstar at 8:15 and 8:48 here as well:
Here’s a good one of Greyhawk at Sun Valley. There are clips of Challenger as well starting at 4:18 and ending at 7:03:
UNIG is Doppelmayr’s standard detachable terminal worldwide. Uni meaning one and G for global. It comes in many different lengths and two different widths. According to Alpinforum:
• UNIG S: 21 windows
• UNIG M: 25 windows
• UNIG L 31 windows
• UNIG XL: 33 windows
• UNIG XXL: 35 windows
• UNIG XXXL: 37 windows
Peter, love Doppelmayr, but IMHO I think I love the Spacejet style terminals, as it gives more a modern space age look. I think in the future, with Doppelmayr upgrades for Detachable lifts, I think they should use the D-Line equipment and technology but incorporate into a newly designed X Large spacejet terminal, with the smaller spacejet terminals delegated to high speed quads. The HSQs should have the exposed bullwheels at both terminals.
Additionally, ALL Detachable lift terminals should incorporate solar panels on their roof and the capability of wind power when the sun is out(assuming lift mechanics can clear the snow off before the start of the day.). That way they dont have to solely rely on pure electricity.
Utah Lost Ski Area ProjectOctober 19, 2021 / 8:47 am
Alex, Doppelmayr offers solar panels on gondola cabins (the gondolas at La Paz), but this idea of yours sounds like a matienence nightmare. “assuming lift mechanics can clear the snow off before the start of the day.” Remember, that means for more staff and more cost for not much of a return. It’s not like Vail isn’t caring about the environment. I believe they are trying to eliminate plastic by 2030 (Don’t quote me on this). The D-line is designed for a completely different grip than the Uni-Spacejet and is designed for larger lifts. The exposed bullwheel doesn’t make sense either. Sure, these designs look good, but at the end of the day, it comes down to “if it makes them money.” In terms of outer aesthetics, that is not why people ride lifts. It’s about the terrain it serves, its reliability, and the location of the lift.
Aesthetics do mean something, but not as much as you think they do. Like, the resorts (Okemo, Copper, Breck, etc.) that have gone with wood siding on the terminals for their LPA detachables for that European vibe.
Alex, the enclosed bullwheels make maintenance so much easier. No more precarious ladders or scaffolding to clean, inspect, and lube- not to mention brake service at the drive terminals is much more comfortable. You may like the look of an exposed bullwheel but it’s not maintenance-friendly.
Also, ‘assuming lift mechanics can clear off the snow before the start of the day’? We have enough going on without incorporating that into our startup routine. We clear snow off terminals as time allows, but that’s later in the day or in the evening after everyone’s off the hill.
How exactly would they expand Excalibur? I would imagine they’d have to replace most of the components of the gondola, given that the technology is dated.
I think major modifications would be needed to Excalibur for it to be extended as Doppelmayr no longer make terminals the work with DT grips. I think the best option would be to replace it entirely, or keep it and add another separate lift.
Not sure. Perhaps after investing in the construction of the lift, they had the intentions of ordering the cabins later on, but maybe they didn’t have the money to do so at the time. It may also be a conditional thing, that lift is quite windy, even in the summer, which may have actually invalidated the usage of the gondola cabins. Whatever the case may be, I’ve never seen this lift running with gondolas, and I doubt they even have the cabins to do so.
Lake Louise does that with Grizzly and Glaicer. Glacier is the summer lift and is a Leitner high speed quad. Grizzly is a Poma 6 passenger gondola. In the summer they swap cabins from Grizzly over to Glacier and run it as a Chondola. I’m guessing they need completely different hanger arms to do that, as would be required to run the Creekside cabins on Peak. Also, Creekside recently started running in the summer to serve more bike trails.
Water got inside of the splice section of the tower tube. When the cold temps came the water turned to ice causing it to expand lifting the tower and the nuts and bolts broke. Causing the tower to fall right over. The term is called “Ice jacking”. Unfortunately the bolts gave away when people were on the lift.
1. Replace Whistler Village Gondola with a 2 stage 6/10 chondola
2. Replace Fitzsimmons with a bubble 6 chair
3. Replace Creekside Gondola with a new 8 person gondola.
4. Replace Franz and Big Red Express with the old Creekside Gondola
5.Jersey Cream Express with bubble 6 chair
6. Replace Showcase T-Bar with the old Franz chair
7. Replace T-Bars 1 and 2 with new CLF 4
8. Replace Horsrman T-Bar with new CLF 4
9. Replace Magic with Chondola and extend up to mid-unload of Excalibur
10. Replace Excalibur with new 4/8 MDG using the existing chairs from Excelrator and have 2 mid unloads, one where the existing one is, and then extend up to replace the Excelerator. Have another unload where the Excelrator begins.
1. Replace Whistler Village Gondola with a 2 stage 6/10 chondola
Never happen. Will always be a Gondola
2. Replace Fitzsimmons with a bubble 6 chair
May possibly be upgraded to a 6 or 8 for the bike park. Can’t see bubbles returning after they were removed.
3. Replace Creekside Gondola with a new 8 person gondola.
Sooner the better. 10 person, same as New Blackcomb gondola
4. Replace Franz and Big Red Express with the old Creekside Gondola.
Big red staying. Franz will be replaced with a new 4 or 6. Who knows when. Alignment is bottom of existing Franz to top of T-bars. Hopefully old Creek
gondola disappears.
5.Jersey Cream Express with bubble 6 chair
May get replaced at some point. Definitely won’t have bubbles. Too windy.
6. Replace Showcase T-Bar with the old Franz chair
Glacier T-bar will stay as long as the ice is there. Old franz chair will hopefully disappear.
7. Replace T-Bars 1 and 2 with new CLF 4
Just need new T-bars. Good bad weather lifts.
8. Replace Horsrman T-Bar with new CLF 4
Glacier lift again. Ice recession means a total rethink of that lift.
9. Replace Magic with Chondola and extend up to mid-unload of Excalibur
On the old renaissance plan. Could happen in the future.
10. Replace Excalibur with new 4/8 MDG using the existing chairs from Excelerator and have 2 mid unloads, one where the existing one is, and then extend up to replace the Excelerator. Have another unload where the Excelerator begins.
Excal may get the third section going to Glacier Creek. If it were me, I would do it as new two section lift. Excel unlikely to change, but would be nice to
see it extended up to say the Wishbone/Gandy Dancer split.
1) Whistler Village needs to be a gondola with direct access to Roundhouse. Fitz and Garbanzo exist so people who would prefer a chairlift can take that instead. However, the gondola could use a capacity increase.
2) Perhaps a 6-pack for more capacity, but I am not sure they would add bubbles after removing them on the current lift in 2011.
3) I would prefer to see either Creekside extended up to Roundhouse with a second stage (replacing Big Red) or an additional gondola out of Creekside altogether going up to Roundhouse in one stage. Creekside does need more capacity, but upgrading it in its existing configuration alone will simply cause Big Red to be overwhelmed.
4 and 7) I kind of mentioned Big Red for 3. I would rather see Franz replaced alongside the T-Bars with a single detachable chairlift because they serve more similar terrain.
5) Agree, although I do not think Vail would go for bubbles.
6 and 8) I think the glacier lifts might need to be replaced with a tram similar to Big Sky’s or some other lift with few or no towers just because of glacier movement.
9) Agree
10) I would keep Excalibur as a gondola. If it were to be extended with a third stage, I would leave Excelerator alone and have the top terminal be at Glacier Creek to help with getting late-season skiers up to Glacier Express.
1) Technically, getting up to the Roundhouse is a three-lift journey if you don’t take the gondola: Fitzsimmons to Garbanzo to Emerald 6. Of course, I think that in addition to a capacity increase on the gondola, it would help things to also increase capacity on Fitzsimmons by adding additional chairs to it and running it all day.
10) I think I would keep the Blackcomb gondolas as is, but build new high speed six packs to supplement the Blackcomb Gondola, effectively filling the old roles of Wizard and Solar Coaster but with different alignments. Wizard would originate at Base II and run parallel to the Blackcomb Gondola, offloading at the top of Gear Jammer, where guests would then be able to access Catskinner to continue their journey to Rendezvous. The master plan has proposals for a high speed quad doing this, although it would start at Excalibur’s midstation instead of at the top of the Magic Chair.
Solar Coaster, meanwhile, would start adjacent to Excelerator and end adjacent to Jersey Cream. This would make it so those starting by going up Excalibur would only have to take one lift to get to most of Blackcomb’s terrain instead of two (Excelerator to Jersey Cream). This wouldn’t make Excelerator redundant; rather, it would be an arrangement similar to how Breck uses the lower Peak 8 superchairs for different functions even though all of the Rocky Mountain SuperChair’s terrain is also accessible from the Colorado SuperChair. In this case, Excelerator would be for those going to the Glacier Express and Crystal Ridge, while Solar Coaster would be for those lapping the main face of Blackcomb as well as traveling to Seventh Heaven.
On Whistler, I’d install a single high speed quad to replace Franz’s and the T-Bar, and another one on the alignment of the former Orange Chair. Franz’s would be relocated over to Blackcomb and used on the former pod of the Crystal Chair, though with a slightly different ending location just a short ways over from Crystal Ridge.
1. VG will have 4000pph like the BG one day.
2. Fitz won’t be a bubble, but needs to be a 6 or 8 for the bike park.
3. Another 4000pph gondola to Chic pea restaurant.
4. New franz will be from the bottom of the current lift to top of the T-bar.
5. 6 pack. No bubbles.
6. Much thinking going on about the glacier. Showcase doesn’t have long where it is and there needs to be lift access to Blackcomb glacier.
9. May happen.
10. More than 2 stages will have way too many problems. 2nd stage to glacier Creek. Maybe parallel Excelerator to just below the Rendezvous.
Usually it’s a detachable that’s incredibly short. The main purpose of a detach is to decrease ride time. On a short lift, the ride time difference between a detach and a fixed grip is marginal. Considering how much more expensive detachables are than fixed grip, a dumb detach is a detachable that would have worked fine as a fixed grip and is basically a waste of money.
It will be interesting to see what the final product is because there is no room at the bottom or top for a detach and it would be maybe 1,000 feet long
Olympic serves a learning area. And before the Garbanzo Express was put in in 1999, Olympic was how you got from the gondola midstation to the Black Chair, Garbanzo’s predecessor. Black Chair ran up Seppo’s run, and I think you can still find the tower foundations for it there in the summer.
From Blackcomb’s Master Plan, the Crystal Ridge Express and Catskinner Express lifts have been built. All that’s really left is the proposed high speed quad from the Excalibur midstation to the bottom of the Catskinner Express.
On Whistler’s side, the Emerald 6 Express and Harmony 6 Express lifts have been built. Also proposed is the replacement of Franz’s and the Whistler T-Bar with a high speed quad. There is also a proposed massive expansion to the south and west, creating a new base area with gondola access at Cheakamus, as well as two more gondolas out of Creekside base (one running to the top of Garbanzo, and another to a point below the West Bowl). This proposal also includes several new pods of trails serviced by three high speed quads, as well as a high speed six pack out of a “Whistler South” base area at the top of the Cheakamus gondola, also containing a learning area with its own fixed grip quad.
The Whistler master plan also has some infill lifts that have been proposed but never built. One would be Yellow Express, a high speed quad that would run parallel to the Emerald 6 Express. Another would be the upgrading of the Olympic chair to a chondola. And third would be two additional chairlifts in the Symphony Ampitheatre to supplement the Symphony Express: a high speed six pack called the Flute Peak Express to serve trails on the far side of the Flute Bowl (with an optional alternative alignment containing just a high speed quad), and an egress fixed grip quad up Robertson’s to eliminate the traverse back to the Harmony 6 Express.
I don’t know if the flute peak express would need to be a six pack. And the whistler south expansion would definitely need snowmaking. Upgrading the creekside gondola and big red would be better than another gondola in my opinion.
A couple questions: Would olympic need to be a chondola? It seems unnecessary and detach quad seems enough.
Also, would the detach quad running from Excalibur mid to catskinner be a reliver lift to blackomb gondola?
I think it would be a daily lift, seeing as it in conjunction with Catskinner would be a more direct route for getting to Rendezvous from the Excalibur midstation, as opposed to taking Excalibur to the Excelerator Express, then taking the Jersey Cream Express.
If they build it, they should name it the Wizard Express as tribute to the previous high speed quad. They should call it that or the Cruiser Express, in tribute to the triple that Excalibur Stage II replaced.
But yeah, that high speed quad really would come in handy, as it would make it possible to use a chairlift to lap most of the old Wizard pod. Maybe put it in a slightly alternate alignment that ends at the top of Slingshot, making it also possible to lap via chairlift the lower part of the former Solar Coaster pod.
The alpine lifts should be able to withstand higher wind speeds. I have been 4 times this season and all of them have been closed every time. Can detachable be retrofitted to run in higher wind speeds?
The alignment, how high the lift sits above the ground and trees, the topography, etc. impact a lifts ability to run in high wind. For this season specifically, many alpine Whistler Blackcomb lifts were closed for a while due to a lack of snow.
Most recently they have been closed because of avalanche risk. The alpine lifts are exposed, so weather will shut them down far more often than other lifts.
Rob – One valid point is the Blackcomb Gondola seems much much more susceptible to wind than the Solar Coaster used to be. And additionally the time to decouple to run the lower / upper line separate (mainly as the thing breaks down A LOT) seems to take a while. And finally on said windy days (like ahem right now) having the upper line run at a slow speed means the LOWER line also runs at a slow speed. Therefore the storm day return cycle to base laps kind of suck. This is the same problem the village gondola has. I do wonder at what point an ops decision could be made to force unload everyone at mid station??
This is definitely an argument that Solar Coaster should’ve been upgraded to a high speed six pack while having the gondola only replace Wizard. Then again, Vail wanted it to be possible to have a one-seat ride to Rendezvous.
So a couple of things. The BG was having issues at Christmas, but otherwise has run fine including some days with no stops, despite your assertions on facebook it’s always broken down. Yes the gondola is more susceptible to wind, but Solar ran a lot of days it shouldn’t have. The BG is there for 4 season traffic so a few days in winter when wind is a problem is the price you pay for that. Also note that if the lift is split it is limited to half speed (3 m/s), so not much is gained by doing that.
Honestly, what wouldn’t have been a bad idea there would have been to have a similar setup to Fitz and Garbonzo with the two lifts running a nearly identical line next to the gondola. Catskinner’s not too far off from that, but since it loads so much higher it’s not quite the same. I don’t see this coming anytime in the near future, it’s possible whenever Magic gets replaced they’ll extend it up a little further but with the giant garage to the right of the gondola preventing the lift being built next to it on the right and the left being crowded by the gondola’s location next to the lodge it probably can’t happen.
One to thing about the Fitz/Garbanzo split is that Garbanzo doesn’t get one quite all the way to Roundhouse. You have to take Big Red or Emerald 6 the rest of the way. But yeah, Whistler has the more ideal setup where you can either ride the gondola all the way up or take the chairlifts route of Fitzsimmons, Garbanzo and Emerald 6 or Big Red and get extra runs and EpicMix check-ins. Whereas with Blackcomb, you have to take a gondola onto it from any of the three entry points (Blackcomb Gondola, Excalibur or Peak 2 Peak), and only the Excalbur route has a chairlift included (with Excelerator).
Will be interesting to see what happens when Vail decides that it’s time for Excalibur to be replaced, seeing as that lift’s getting up there in age.
I believe that there are two plans down the line for Blackcomb. One will be a lift running from the Excalibur midstation to the bottom of Catskinner. This will serve as a third staging route. The other will be a a third stage of excalibur to the bottom of Jersey Cream. This will probably be realized with a replacement.
Thing about the Excalibur stage 3 is that that would probably entail having to replace all the grips on the existing stages, since the DS grip is no longer produced. That, or like Telluride’s parking access gondola, stage 3 would have to be built as a separate independent system.
The proposed high speed quad from Excalbur’s midstation to the bottom of Catskinner might go hand in hand with an upgraded Magic Chair.
Is the detach quad spanning Franz’s up to the t bars confirmed?
also, I think they should build a fixed grip at the junction of highway 86 going up to bagel bowl so skiers can make it back to the peak without big red, relieving pressure off it as well as a much shorter time option.
The more I hear from lift companies about production constraints, the more I think Vail’s going to need to reuse lifts like Big Red next year. I just don’t see 19 brand new lifts happening in addition to all of the other projects already signed. It’s going to be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Regarding production constraints: It will be tough across the board, but I think sorting everything out now (as opposed to the traditional window in a couple of months) will help. Green Ridge from Okemo is being reused for E/F at Jack Frost, and I could see Sunbrook from Mt. Snow, Eagle from Park City, Eaglet from Park City, and Mountain from Stowe being reused for other fixed-grip constructions. Plus, part of Peru can go to Vail to help with Sundown, part of Comstock can go to Heavenly to help with North Bowl, and Silverlode is so young that it can perhaps be reused entirely somewhere.
Question for AussieRob – I noticed the Tram from Rendezvous to 7th Heaven on the Blackcomb Master Plan. Has Whistler ever considered anything similar from Roundhouse to top of Harmony? or perhaps an extension of the Whistler Village Gondola to that location?
There is nothing in the plans for the top of Harmony or the Peak. I would personally like to see a funifor or maybe a tram to the top of the peak for sight seeing and morning staff access purposes. Would also add a bit of capacity in the winter.
I wonder if the new creekside gondola will have a mid station at the base of redchair and continue up to the top of Garbo? I feel like this would be great because red chair is such a bottleneck and having a second section up to Garbo would relive it a lot.
Okay thanks rob. I was also wondering about the franz detachable from the current base of the fixed grip triple to the top of the t bars. I have heard numerous rumours regarding big red parts being moved over to the new franzs chair this year? I have also heard that no one knows anything regarding that. I’m almost 100 percent sure this isn’t true at the moment. But would love to see something like this in the future. I’m hoping that it will happen sometime.
Okay thanks rob. I was also wondering about the franz detachable from the current base of the fixed grip triple to the top of the t bars. I have heard numerous rumours regarding big red parts being moved over to the new franzs chair this year? I have also heard that no one knows anything regarding that. I’m almost 100 percent sure this isn’t true at the moment. But would love to see something like this in the future. I’m hoping that it will happen sometime.
I would guess Vail will take a year or two off new lifts for here after 4 lifts in 2 years, but what would be the most likely next moves? Here are what I think:
1. Franz/Tbar 6
2. 7th Heaven 6
3. Garbanzo 6
4. Glacier 6
5.Whistler Village Gondola replacement
6. chair from Base 2 to Catskinner
7. Excalibur Gondola replacement and extension to Glacier Creek
8. Symphony return lift to Harmony Ridge
9. Bagel Bowl/lift between Creekside/Peak to Creek
10. Whistler South Expansion
There is an expensive plan, but not sure where on the priority list it is. I guess it would drive visitation in the non-ski season, maybe a bit in the winter.
1. Franz/Tbar I think will happen but HSQ with wind slats instead of HSS.
2. 7th Heaven won’t happen until some other things are done. For a new 7th heaven lift they are going to have to lower the ridge it sits on with blasting. Also once that’s done a fixed grip quad from top of glacier to top of seventh might be a good idea if there is no more movement of towers.
3. Garbanzo might happen at some point but probably not in the near future.
4. Glacier 6 is a good idea but it isn’t too crowded unless it’s a powder day and the new Jersey Cream will take pressure off it.
5. This will need to happen at some point but I don’t think it will in the immediate future as it is such a key lift.
7. I’m guessing it will be one or the other: Excalibur extension or HSQ from Base II to Cat Skinner. I think Excalibur is more likely considering it’s age.
8. Could happen but I don’t think it will anytime soon.
9. Bagel Bowl is a good idea to draw more skiers to that side of the mountain but again that won’t happen anytime soon plus they will need permits in order to clear trees and that may take a bit of time.
10. I don’t think Whistler South will ever happen. Too low elevation, snowmaking costs, etc.
I was a bit surprised they didn’t reuse Big Red to replace Franz’s like they did with Catskinner at Blackcomb. I know they wanted the parts but it’s a pretty standard spacejet with DT’s so I’d imagine those are pretty easy to get.
Red was going to need significant upgrades to comply with the current lift code that Emerald didn’t require. We had a party interested in taking it, but their analysis was there was better value in a new lift. Therefore we parted it out and scrapped the rest.
I was hoping you’d reply, that’s interesting to know! I was expecting both emerald and big red to be pretty similar technically, any details about the upgrades it would have needed?
Red was going to need a full electrical upgrade. Everything replaced as you can’t piecemeal an upgrade anymore. So new controls, hydraulics, tension system, drive, and probably motor.
Would the Tbar remain if Garbonzo was moved over to the Franz alignment?
Nostalgia reasons aside, it’s a great lift for the super windy days when the alpine lifts can’t run.
It might. We have been using the T-bar for spring race training. The problem is aligning a new lift to avoid crossing the snowmaking pond. To do that the new detachable needs to unload where the T-bar is. May be possible to have both depending on where the bottom is located, or whether an evacuation system can be built for the pond crossing section.
A Whistler Village Gondola replacement probably isn’t coming any time soon. Too substantial of a link to cut off for even part of a season and they’re refurbished and replaced just about every component of that lift.
The VG does need replacement. Parts a hard, not impossible yet. We have done a lot of work on it, but the big issue is it no longer has the capacity and reliability we need for all the things it does. It will be a major disruption, but we have no choice to put up with it. My hope would be in 2025 we replace Garbo with a six and move the quad to the Franz alignment. This gives some replacement capacity out of the village. The VG is a two year project. It is a narrow gauge lift and new higher capacity replacements are much wider gauge. Year one would be all the surgery on the buildings. (replace the bottom terminal/rentals/GR/GLC with a new building?) and maybe some tower footings. Year two is the lift replacement which may be more than an off season (not that we have one). As you can imagine this will be really expensive. I’m not sure where this lies in the corporate priority list, but is number one on my list.
Don’t quote me on this either, but village gondola might be coming after Jersey Cream according to someone I know who works here. Not fully sure though, as I don’t know whether it really is a priority. It’s working fine.
One stop and the world ends. I totally get it. Lifts are complex and cover all sorta ground and are engineering marvels, but whatever. I get super po’d if I’m delayed at all while doing white privilege. If I’m unhappy, everyone needs to drop everything and fix things for me, damn the torpedoes and the cost. RIGHT NOW. I’M TALKIN TO YOU, KRISTIN. YOU FEEL ME?!
The way I (and, apparently, Billuh) read your comment, you think it needs to be replaced because it stopped. All lifts stop. Unless you’re in the operator shack looking at the screen, you don’t know why, which is understandably frustrating but doesn’t automatically mean a lift needs to be replaced.
3. Gondola from WVG base to BCG base (Uni G, uniform with BCG)
4. Excalibur replacement and realignment=BCG base to current end; extend to glacier chair base. (Uni G, uniform with BCG)
5. Blackcomb tram?? Rendezvous to peak?
6. Crystal ridge 4 (Uni G) (for the purpose of a pure dopp resort, an impressive accomplishment.)
7. Fixed grip replacements (see above)
8. Hortsman double: base of ruby to showcase (too steep?)
9. Showcase quad
10. Flute HSQ: base of symphony to Flute Bowl
11. Creekside expansion: network of lifts up the ridge to the right of the Creekside gondola.
Let me know if your thoughts and anything I messed. Some of these are really not necessary, like the crystal ridge and fixed grip replacements, but tell me you’re thinking, if you scrolled this far. THESE ARE NOT ON ORDER!!!!!!
1. Jersey Cream 6 (D Line) Will be a UNI-G. Already produced. Installation in 2024.
2. WVG replacement (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Lots of options, but the rope gauge is a limiting factor depending on the capacity chosen. Tri-Line is an option as well, but would require significant building changes.
3. Gondola from WVG base to BCG base (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Simply no room for these terminals. Not happening.
4. Excalibur replacement and realignment=BCG base to current end; extend to glacier chair base. (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Agree this gondola needs to finish at JC flats, but needs to start in the village where it currently does. Lots of people access Blackcomb from here. Could be 2 or 3 sections depending on your view of downloading from the current unload.
5. Blackcomb tram?? Rendezvous to peak? There is a plan for it. Tied to the 7th heaven replacement.
6. Crystal ridge 4 (Uni G) (for the purpose of a pure dopp resort, an impressive accomplishment.) Not likely. Too many other priorities. I would think this will only happen if it needs to be upgraded to a 6 pack.
7. Fixed grip replacements (see above) I’d love to see the end of the Yans, but they get the job they need to do done. Newer fixed grip technology would be an improvement though.
8. Hortsman double: base of ruby to showcase (too steep?) There is a lift in the master plan like this. Would be difficult to operate. Maybe something from swamp thing (bottom of Blackcomb glacier) to top of Crystal chair would work better.
9. Showcase quad. We need to do something here as the T-bar alignment is untenable. The glacier is a big factor in what is possible.
10. Flute HSQ: base of symphony to Flute Bowl. Plan is to take it to the top of Flute. Not a priority at this time. Could also do a short fixed grip from the Piccolo-Flute col to the top of Flute to eliminate the hike.
11. Creekside expansion: network of lifts up the ridge to the right of the Creekside gondola. The whole Khyber expansion is in the master plan. Will be super expensive as it is a greenfield site that will require utility servicing, roads, runs etc. No timeline yet.
Let me know if your thoughts and anything I messed. Some of these are really not necessary, like the crystal ridge and fixed grip replacements, but tell me you’re thinking, if you scrolled this far. THESE ARE NOT ON ORDER!!!!!!
Rob-
I think JC 6 will happen with Garbo 6 I’ve heard lots and lots of rumours abt that I’m not fully convinced though? Move old Garbo to franzs. But then they prolly will replace wvg??? A tri line that sounds cool?! Like a 3s gondy. R they actually thinking abt that? If a gondola they should make it a D line. Then 7th zone with tram maybe?! Or yellow chair. A peak 6. Excalibur replacement. Vail theoretically will be replacing a lift a year or a couple.
JC will be changed in ’24. A logical move after that would be to upgrade Garbanzo, to increase capacity out of the village before replacing the WVG, which would probably require it to be out of service for a year. Having said that I think there is a way to do it with only having it out of service for summer. A lot depends on the exact plan for it’s replacement. There are a number of options here, which heavily depend on the chosen capacity. Poma could do this, or more likely some flavor of D-line/Tri-line. As for all the other lifts, we (and the rest of Vail) have many lifts that are becoming difficult if not impossible to support and there really needs to be a robust replacement program. (Think epic lift upgrade year, every year, for the next 10-20 years)
That’s so interesting. I feel like given whistler is a doppie mountain poma probably wouldn’t be on the radar?! That’s so cool though. I hope we get an announcement sooner then later.
Lift Blog 
Great pictures of the old Yans in this thread on skilifts.org.
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10878
You should add them to this spreadsheet.
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The website’s giving me a hard time accessing these, can someone who has an account on the website paste the pictures below this comment?
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http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26352
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26353
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26354
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26355
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26356
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26357
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26358
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26359
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26360
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26451
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26452
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26453
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=26454
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I dont think the website lets you view images unless you have a account
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Still not working. So close yet so far away…
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Okay, now this *should* work- https://imgur.com/a/AixC0Jp
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Think about this, every lift that has run in the spot where Creekside gondola operates has been removed due to a mechanical malfunction. The original gondola suffered a fatal grip failure, and was removed. Then, Yan made Quicksilver, which also had issues regarding the grip. Now, Creekside Gondola has TB-41s, which have fallen off of the line in the past, like when that chair fell off of the old Harmony Express. Funny coincidence.
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The chair that came off the line at Harmony had nothing to do with the grip. It was a broken assembly bolt.
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Didn’t know that. I think those grips have had issues in the past though on other lifts, Don’t remember the exact lifts, but I recall a few lifts that had issues regarding the grip.
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TB grips have been pretty reliable, from my experience. What sort of issues do you know of?
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If I recall correctly, a chair fell off Timberline’s Magic Mile Quad a few years ago. It’s a 1992 Poma 1st gen. Challenger with TB-41s and Competition chairs. That’s the only incident I can think of.
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That’s a pretty nebulous statement. You may be referring to an incident at Mt. Hood where a chair fell from a maintenance oversight…not a grip issue.
Not a TB-41 issue.
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Fair enough. I was under the impression that the TB-41s had had issues in the past with the grip itself, but it sounds like these was due to other conditions. Thanks for notifying me of that.
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Does anyone have pics of the black chair or the original Yan high speeds?
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There are some good pics here.
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10878
I assume there are some other pictures from the skilifts.org forum of Yan detachables that Peter can dig up. I sure would appreciate it if he did.
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I don’t think Peter repurposes pictures from other sites for the database.
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Well I would still appreciate it if he posted links to them.
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It says I can’t access the photos
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It says I can’t access the photos
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I’m pretty sure it restricts photos if you don’t have an account. Just make one, it’s free.
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Here’s a good shot of Killington’s Superstar Quad (1987 Yan CLD4):
and the upper lift line of Superstar:
I love how they say “state of the art detachable quads” when in reality they were death traps that had to be rebuilt after only a few years of service.
There are a few more good shots of Superstar at 8:15 and 8:48 here as well:
Here’s a good one of Greyhawk at Sun Valley. There are clips of Challenger as well starting at 4:18 and ending at 7:03:
There’s a good page of some of Yan’s fixed grip designs as well on Skilifts.org:
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10947&hl=&fromsearch=1
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Is there some where I can find the meaning of uni g unigs unigm uni unigxxl and so on?
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UNIG is Doppelmayr’s standard detachable terminal worldwide. Uni meaning one and G for global. It comes in many different lengths and two different widths. According to Alpinforum:
• UNIG S: 21 windows
• UNIG M: 25 windows
• UNIG L 31 windows
• UNIG XL: 33 windows
• UNIG XXL: 35 windows
• UNIG XXXL: 37 windows
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Peter, love Doppelmayr, but IMHO I think I love the Spacejet style terminals, as it gives more a modern space age look. I think in the future, with Doppelmayr upgrades for Detachable lifts, I think they should use the D-Line equipment and technology but incorporate into a newly designed X Large spacejet terminal, with the smaller spacejet terminals delegated to high speed quads. The HSQs should have the exposed bullwheels at both terminals.
Additionally, ALL Detachable lift terminals should incorporate solar panels on their roof and the capability of wind power when the sun is out(assuming lift mechanics can clear the snow off before the start of the day.). That way they dont have to solely rely on pure electricity.
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Alex, Doppelmayr offers solar panels on gondola cabins (the gondolas at La Paz), but this idea of yours sounds like a matienence nightmare. “assuming lift mechanics can clear the snow off before the start of the day.” Remember, that means for more staff and more cost for not much of a return. It’s not like Vail isn’t caring about the environment. I believe they are trying to eliminate plastic by 2030 (Don’t quote me on this). The D-line is designed for a completely different grip than the Uni-Spacejet and is designed for larger lifts. The exposed bullwheel doesn’t make sense either. Sure, these designs look good, but at the end of the day, it comes down to “if it makes them money.” In terms of outer aesthetics, that is not why people ride lifts. It’s about the terrain it serves, its reliability, and the location of the lift.
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Aesthetics do mean something, but not as much as you think they do. Like, the resorts (Okemo, Copper, Breck, etc.) that have gone with wood siding on the terminals for their LPA detachables for that European vibe.
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Alex, the enclosed bullwheels make maintenance so much easier. No more precarious ladders or scaffolding to clean, inspect, and lube- not to mention brake service at the drive terminals is much more comfortable. You may like the look of an exposed bullwheel but it’s not maintenance-friendly.
Also, ‘assuming lift mechanics can clear off the snow before the start of the day’? We have enough going on without incorporating that into our startup routine. We clear snow off terminals as time allows, but that’s later in the day or in the evening after everyone’s off the hill.
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Have there been any UNIG XXXLs installed in the US? If not, are there some in Europe?
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Blackcomb Gondola has XXXL’s at top and bottom., despite my earlier comment to the contrary.
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Where can I find pictures and discriptions of the different dopplmeyer terminals.
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Skilifts.org – Doppelmayr CTEC ID Sheet
sorry for the extremely late reply
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Will the terminals on the new blackcomb gondola be unig vision?
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I dont think so. It will be a ordinary unig XXL terminal I think. Uni G visions are quite rare in North america and I think aspen has one.
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Huh? Aspen Skiing Co. doesn’t operate any Doppelmayr lifts.
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I was wrong its Keystone’s River run gondola.
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Blackcomb Gondola will be XXL UniG at top and bottom and 2 x L at midstation
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Which lifts will the Blackomb gondola replace?
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Wizard Express and Solar Coaster Express.
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Huh. I thought it was replacing Excalibur. But I checked and I guess you’re right.
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Eventually, they’re going to extend Excalibur to the bottom of Glacier and Jersey Cream.
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How exactly would they expand Excalibur? I would imagine they’d have to replace most of the components of the gondola, given that the technology is dated.
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I think major modifications would be needed to Excalibur for it to be extended as Doppelmayr no longer make terminals the work with DT grips. I think the best option would be to replace it entirely, or keep it and add another separate lift.
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Excalibur has ds grips, not dt. Dt are still i. Production.
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Ted. You are correct about the grip type. Typo there. Should be DS.
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Why did the peak chair never run with gondolas?
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Not sure. Perhaps after investing in the construction of the lift, they had the intentions of ordering the cabins later on, but maybe they didn’t have the money to do so at the time. It may also be a conditional thing, that lift is quite windy, even in the summer, which may have actually invalidated the usage of the gondola cabins. Whatever the case may be, I’ve never seen this lift running with gondolas, and I doubt they even have the cabins to do so.
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The original plan was to run with gondola cabins off Creekside, but the logistics a pretty big to do the changeover twice a year for a short season.
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Lake Louise does that with Grizzly and Glaicer. Glacier is the summer lift and is a Leitner high speed quad. Grizzly is a Poma 6 passenger gondola. In the summer they swap cabins from Grizzly over to Glacier and run it as a Chondola. I’m guessing they need completely different hanger arms to do that, as would be required to run the Creekside cabins on Peak. Also, Creekside recently started running in the summer to serve more bike trails.
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some shots of the new Emerald 6 in this video. https://youtu.be/Zf8D42c1U98
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Isn’t Whistler village gondola a 8 mgd?
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WVG has ten passenger cabins but is certified for nine people.
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What do you mean by certified for 9?
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Does anyone know what happened with the Excalibur Gondola Crash?
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Water got inside of the splice section of the tower tube. When the cold temps came the water turned to ice causing it to expand lifting the tower and the nuts and bolts broke. Causing the tower to fall right over. The term is called “Ice jacking”. Unfortunately the bolts gave away when people were on the lift.
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Wasn’t nuts and bolts that broke, the welded flange separated from the tube.
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I have always wondered about these lift upgrades:
1. Replace Whistler Village Gondola with a 2 stage 6/10 chondola
2. Replace Fitzsimmons with a bubble 6 chair
3. Replace Creekside Gondola with a new 8 person gondola.
4. Replace Franz and Big Red Express with the old Creekside Gondola
5.Jersey Cream Express with bubble 6 chair
6. Replace Showcase T-Bar with the old Franz chair
7. Replace T-Bars 1 and 2 with new CLF 4
8. Replace Horsrman T-Bar with new CLF 4
9. Replace Magic with Chondola and extend up to mid-unload of Excalibur
10. Replace Excalibur with new 4/8 MDG using the existing chairs from Excelrator and have 2 mid unloads, one where the existing one is, and then extend up to replace the Excelerator. Have another unload where the Excelrator begins.
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One question i have is can a chondola have a midstation? To date I cannot think of a chondola that contains one.
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“One question i have is can a chondola have a midstation? To date I cannot think of a chondola that contains one.”
You can, but they are large, complex terminals with lots of moving parts.
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Buck hill wants to install a chondola that would be a dumb detach, so would a fixed grip work?
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I have always wondered about these lift upgrades:
1. Replace Whistler Village Gondola with a 2 stage 6/10 chondola
Never happen. Will always be a Gondola
2. Replace Fitzsimmons with a bubble 6 chair
May possibly be upgraded to a 6 or 8 for the bike park. Can’t see bubbles returning after they were removed.
3. Replace Creekside Gondola with a new 8 person gondola.
Sooner the better. 10 person, same as New Blackcomb gondola
4. Replace Franz and Big Red Express with the old Creekside Gondola.
Big red staying. Franz will be replaced with a new 4 or 6. Who knows when. Alignment is bottom of existing Franz to top of T-bars. Hopefully old Creek
gondola disappears.
5.Jersey Cream Express with bubble 6 chair
May get replaced at some point. Definitely won’t have bubbles. Too windy.
6. Replace Showcase T-Bar with the old Franz chair
Glacier T-bar will stay as long as the ice is there. Old franz chair will hopefully disappear.
7. Replace T-Bars 1 and 2 with new CLF 4
Just need new T-bars. Good bad weather lifts.
8. Replace Horsrman T-Bar with new CLF 4
Glacier lift again. Ice recession means a total rethink of that lift.
9. Replace Magic with Chondola and extend up to mid-unload of Excalibur
On the old renaissance plan. Could happen in the future.
10. Replace Excalibur with new 4/8 MDG using the existing chairs from Excelerator and have 2 mid unloads, one where the existing one is, and then extend up to replace the Excelerator. Have another unload where the Excelerator begins.
Excal may get the third section going to Glacier Creek. If it were me, I would do it as new two section lift. Excel unlikely to change, but would be nice to
see it extended up to say the Wishbone/Gandy Dancer split.
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Is WB still considering the Showcase Gondola idea that was in the Blackcomb master plan?
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Don’t think so. The tunnel that is part of that plan is not viable. Rock conditions unfavourable.
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anyone have any plans on the showcase gondola tunnel?
Sounds very interesting
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1) Whistler Village needs to be a gondola with direct access to Roundhouse. Fitz and Garbanzo exist so people who would prefer a chairlift can take that instead. However, the gondola could use a capacity increase.
2) Perhaps a 6-pack for more capacity, but I am not sure they would add bubbles after removing them on the current lift in 2011.
3) I would prefer to see either Creekside extended up to Roundhouse with a second stage (replacing Big Red) or an additional gondola out of Creekside altogether going up to Roundhouse in one stage. Creekside does need more capacity, but upgrading it in its existing configuration alone will simply cause Big Red to be overwhelmed.
4 and 7) I kind of mentioned Big Red for 3. I would rather see Franz replaced alongside the T-Bars with a single detachable chairlift because they serve more similar terrain.
5) Agree, although I do not think Vail would go for bubbles.
6 and 8) I think the glacier lifts might need to be replaced with a tram similar to Big Sky’s or some other lift with few or no towers just because of glacier movement.
9) Agree
10) I would keep Excalibur as a gondola. If it were to be extended with a third stage, I would leave Excelerator alone and have the top terminal be at Glacier Creek to help with getting late-season skiers up to Glacier Express.
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1) Technically, getting up to the Roundhouse is a three-lift journey if you don’t take the gondola: Fitzsimmons to Garbanzo to Emerald 6. Of course, I think that in addition to a capacity increase on the gondola, it would help things to also increase capacity on Fitzsimmons by adding additional chairs to it and running it all day.
10) I think I would keep the Blackcomb gondolas as is, but build new high speed six packs to supplement the Blackcomb Gondola, effectively filling the old roles of Wizard and Solar Coaster but with different alignments. Wizard would originate at Base II and run parallel to the Blackcomb Gondola, offloading at the top of Gear Jammer, where guests would then be able to access Catskinner to continue their journey to Rendezvous. The master plan has proposals for a high speed quad doing this, although it would start at Excalibur’s midstation instead of at the top of the Magic Chair.
Solar Coaster, meanwhile, would start adjacent to Excelerator and end adjacent to Jersey Cream. This would make it so those starting by going up Excalibur would only have to take one lift to get to most of Blackcomb’s terrain instead of two (Excelerator to Jersey Cream). This wouldn’t make Excelerator redundant; rather, it would be an arrangement similar to how Breck uses the lower Peak 8 superchairs for different functions even though all of the Rocky Mountain SuperChair’s terrain is also accessible from the Colorado SuperChair. In this case, Excelerator would be for those going to the Glacier Express and Crystal Ridge, while Solar Coaster would be for those lapping the main face of Blackcomb as well as traveling to Seventh Heaven.
On Whistler, I’d install a single high speed quad to replace Franz’s and the T-Bar, and another one on the alignment of the former Orange Chair. Franz’s would be relocated over to Blackcomb and used on the former pod of the Crystal Chair, though with a slightly different ending location just a short ways over from Crystal Ridge.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1UxJz8J8vpukcfazlCxYjvLarefidr775&usp=sharing
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1. VG will have 4000pph like the BG one day.
2. Fitz won’t be a bubble, but needs to be a 6 or 8 for the bike park.
3. Another 4000pph gondola to Chic pea restaurant.
4. New franz will be from the bottom of the current lift to top of the T-bar.
5. 6 pack. No bubbles.
6. Much thinking going on about the glacier. Showcase doesn’t have long where it is and there needs to be lift access to Blackcomb glacier.
9. May happen.
10. More than 2 stages will have way too many problems. 2nd stage to glacier Creek. Maybe parallel Excelerator to just below the Rendezvous.
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1. It would make sense to keep as a 10 person gondola as it has a mid station and it is the main lift on the mountain.
2. I could see Fitzsimmons being replaced with a 6 pack, but without bubbles since Vail hates bubbles.
3. That would make sense as Creekside is getting older and needs more capacity.
4. I don’t think that will happen since there is lapp-able terrain off of Big Red and Franz’s and it wouldn’t make sense to have a gondola there.
5. Once again, Jersey Cream as a 6 pack but without bubbles for the aforementioned reason.
6. I’m not sure what to say about this idea.
7. The master plan is to replace Franz’s with a HSQ and extending it to the top of t-bars 1 and 2 which will replace t-bars 1 and 2.
8. Good idea but I’m not sure how that would work with the glacier moving all the time.
9. A FGQ would work fine here I think.
10. I would replace Excalibur with a new gondola with a third stage going to the bottom of Glacier and Jersey Cream.
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The Blackcomb gondola has 21 towers on each side.
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Buck hill wants to install a chondola that would be a dumb detach, so would a fixed grip work?
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Fixed grip gondolas really don’t work as the terminal speed has to be low for safe loading/unloading.
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That’s why they make pulse gondolas.
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No room to keep it. We had to use the same alignment. Also very expensive to keep around as a back up lift
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I’ve seen that term used a couple times and I’m not sure what it means. What is a “dumb detach”?
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Usually it’s a detachable that’s incredibly short. The main purpose of a detach is to decrease ride time. On a short lift, the ride time difference between a detach and a fixed grip is marginal. Considering how much more expensive detachables are than fixed grip, a dumb detach is a detachable that would have worked fine as a fixed grip and is basically a waste of money.
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*cough cough* Quarter Dollar Express on Dollar Mountain Sun Valley…
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It will be interesting to see what the final product is because there is no room at the bottom or top for a detach and it would be maybe 1,000 feet long
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What’s next on the chopping block? 7th heaven express being replaced with 7th Heaven 6 Express?
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Lots of other things need to happen in conjunction with an upgrade there.
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I hope for 7th Heaven 6 or Franz’s express for next year. Or maybe both!
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Also is the Olympic chair needed? Isn’t it really long for a beginner lift? What is it used for
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Olympic serves a learning area. And before the Garbanzo Express was put in in 1999, Olympic was how you got from the gondola midstation to the Black Chair, Garbanzo’s predecessor. Black Chair ran up Seppo’s run, and I think you can still find the tower foundations for it there in the summer.
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Here are links to the 2010 master plans for Whistler and Blackcomb
Whistler
Click to access 1323122240.pdf
Blackcomb
Click to access 1317504769.pdf
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From Blackcomb’s Master Plan, the Crystal Ridge Express and Catskinner Express lifts have been built. All that’s really left is the proposed high speed quad from the Excalibur midstation to the bottom of the Catskinner Express.
On Whistler’s side, the Emerald 6 Express and Harmony 6 Express lifts have been built. Also proposed is the replacement of Franz’s and the Whistler T-Bar with a high speed quad. There is also a proposed massive expansion to the south and west, creating a new base area with gondola access at Cheakamus, as well as two more gondolas out of Creekside base (one running to the top of Garbanzo, and another to a point below the West Bowl). This proposal also includes several new pods of trails serviced by three high speed quads, as well as a high speed six pack out of a “Whistler South” base area at the top of the Cheakamus gondola, also containing a learning area with its own fixed grip quad.
The Whistler master plan also has some infill lifts that have been proposed but never built. One would be Yellow Express, a high speed quad that would run parallel to the Emerald 6 Express. Another would be the upgrading of the Olympic chair to a chondola. And third would be two additional chairlifts in the Symphony Ampitheatre to supplement the Symphony Express: a high speed six pack called the Flute Peak Express to serve trails on the far side of the Flute Bowl (with an optional alternative alignment containing just a high speed quad), and an egress fixed grip quad up Robertson’s to eliminate the traverse back to the Harmony 6 Express.
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The 2010 maps are out of date. 2013 is the current version.
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I don’t know if the flute peak express would need to be a six pack. And the whistler south expansion would definitely need snowmaking. Upgrading the creekside gondola and big red would be better than another gondola in my opinion.
A couple questions: Would olympic need to be a chondola? It seems unnecessary and detach quad seems enough.
Also, would the detach quad running from Excalibur mid to catskinner be a reliver lift to blackomb gondola?
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I think it would be a daily lift, seeing as it in conjunction with Catskinner would be a more direct route for getting to Rendezvous from the Excalibur midstation, as opposed to taking Excalibur to the Excelerator Express, then taking the Jersey Cream Express.
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I don’t think Olympic would need to be a chondola. A fixed grip quad or a high speed quad with carpet would probably suffice.
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With the lines on blackomb gondola in the past few weeks, the proposed detach from base 2 to catskinner is sorely needed.
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If they build it, they should name it the Wizard Express as tribute to the previous high speed quad. They should call it that or the Cruiser Express, in tribute to the triple that Excalibur Stage II replaced.
But yeah, that high speed quad really would come in handy, as it would make it possible to use a chairlift to lap most of the old Wizard pod. Maybe put it in a slightly alternate alignment that ends at the top of Slingshot, making it also possible to lap via chairlift the lower part of the former Solar Coaster pod.
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The alpine lifts should be able to withstand higher wind speeds. I have been 4 times this season and all of them have been closed every time. Can detachable be retrofitted to run in higher wind speeds?
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The alignment, how high the lift sits above the ground and trees, the topography, etc. impact a lifts ability to run in high wind. For this season specifically, many alpine Whistler Blackcomb lifts were closed for a while due to a lack of snow.
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Most recently they have been closed because of avalanche risk. The alpine lifts are exposed, so weather will shut them down far more often than other lifts.
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Rob – One valid point is the Blackcomb Gondola seems much much more susceptible to wind than the Solar Coaster used to be. And additionally the time to decouple to run the lower / upper line separate (mainly as the thing breaks down A LOT) seems to take a while. And finally on said windy days (like ahem right now) having the upper line run at a slow speed means the LOWER line also runs at a slow speed. Therefore the storm day return cycle to base laps kind of suck. This is the same problem the village gondola has. I do wonder at what point an ops decision could be made to force unload everyone at mid station??
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This is definitely an argument that Solar Coaster should’ve been upgraded to a high speed six pack while having the gondola only replace Wizard. Then again, Vail wanted it to be possible to have a one-seat ride to Rendezvous.
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So a couple of things. The BG was having issues at Christmas, but otherwise has run fine including some days with no stops, despite your assertions on facebook it’s always broken down. Yes the gondola is more susceptible to wind, but Solar ran a lot of days it shouldn’t have. The BG is there for 4 season traffic so a few days in winter when wind is a problem is the price you pay for that. Also note that if the lift is split it is limited to half speed (3 m/s), so not much is gained by doing that.
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Honestly, what wouldn’t have been a bad idea there would have been to have a similar setup to Fitz and Garbonzo with the two lifts running a nearly identical line next to the gondola. Catskinner’s not too far off from that, but since it loads so much higher it’s not quite the same. I don’t see this coming anytime in the near future, it’s possible whenever Magic gets replaced they’ll extend it up a little further but with the giant garage to the right of the gondola preventing the lift being built next to it on the right and the left being crowded by the gondola’s location next to the lodge it probably can’t happen.
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One to thing about the Fitz/Garbanzo split is that Garbanzo doesn’t get one quite all the way to Roundhouse. You have to take Big Red or Emerald 6 the rest of the way. But yeah, Whistler has the more ideal setup where you can either ride the gondola all the way up or take the chairlifts route of Fitzsimmons, Garbanzo and Emerald 6 or Big Red and get extra runs and EpicMix check-ins. Whereas with Blackcomb, you have to take a gondola onto it from any of the three entry points (Blackcomb Gondola, Excalibur or Peak 2 Peak), and only the Excalbur route has a chairlift included (with Excelerator).
Will be interesting to see what happens when Vail decides that it’s time for Excalibur to be replaced, seeing as that lift’s getting up there in age.
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I believe that there are two plans down the line for Blackcomb. One will be a lift running from the Excalibur midstation to the bottom of Catskinner. This will serve as a third staging route. The other will be a a third stage of excalibur to the bottom of Jersey Cream. This will probably be realized with a replacement.
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Thing about the Excalibur stage 3 is that that would probably entail having to replace all the grips on the existing stages, since the DS grip is no longer produced. That, or like Telluride’s parking access gondola, stage 3 would have to be built as a separate independent system.
The proposed high speed quad from Excalbur’s midstation to the bottom of Catskinner might go hand in hand with an upgraded Magic Chair.
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Is there any way to give harmony more wind protection? It has been closing a lot because of that.
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No. You can try calling mother nature and see if she’ll dial the winds down, but I dont think you’ll have much luck.
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High Alpine T-Bar was relocated from Fortress Mountain, AB.
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Is their any remains of orange double?
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No. It was all removed right around the Olympics in 2010.
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Parts where donated to Mt. Seymour as they have the same type of lift.
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Is the detach quad spanning Franz’s up to the t bars confirmed?
also, I think they should build a fixed grip at the junction of highway 86 going up to bagel bowl so skiers can make it back to the peak without big red, relieving pressure off it as well as a much shorter time option.
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Not soon. It’s on the master plan but there is no time line for it.
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Since Big Red is getting replaced in the near future, couldn’t they just use it to replace the Franz/T-Bars alignment?
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The more I hear from lift companies about production constraints, the more I think Vail’s going to need to reuse lifts like Big Red next year. I just don’t see 19 brand new lifts happening in addition to all of the other projects already signed. It’s going to be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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I think all the six packs and gondolas Vail builds next year will be brand new but some of the HSQs, and fixed grip lifts will be reused.
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With completely new towers, it could get the Emerald 4 to Catskinner treatment (reuse the chairs and towers, all-new towers from Doppelmayr):
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Red is spare parts and scrap at this point.
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Regarding production constraints: It will be tough across the board, but I think sorting everything out now (as opposed to the traditional window in a couple of months) will help. Green Ridge from Okemo is being reused for E/F at Jack Frost, and I could see Sunbrook from Mt. Snow, Eagle from Park City, Eaglet from Park City, and Mountain from Stowe being reused for other fixed-grip constructions. Plus, part of Peru can go to Vail to help with Sundown, part of Comstock can go to Heavenly to help with North Bowl, and Silverlode is so young that it can perhaps be reused entirely somewhere.
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I would like to know what happened to the Mountie signboard that used to be at the Whistler Village Gondola mid station
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Don’t ever recall seeing one.
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I would like to know why the Excalibur Gondola is not open for sightseeing on Blackcomb Mountain in the summer
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Excalibur doesn’t take you anywhere you can see anything. That’s why we have the other three gondolas open. Lots of views from them.
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Old Stoker chair:
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Question for AussieRob – I noticed the Tram from Rendezvous to 7th Heaven on the Blackcomb Master Plan. Has Whistler ever considered anything similar from Roundhouse to top of Harmony? or perhaps an extension of the Whistler Village Gondola to that location?
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There is nothing in the plans for the top of Harmony or the Peak. I would personally like to see a funifor or maybe a tram to the top of the peak for sight seeing and morning staff access purposes. Would also add a bit of capacity in the winter.
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Horstman, all the way at the bottom, still says that it’s operating, yet it says 1987-2020
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Likely just a mistake in the spreadsheet. The lift was removed last summer.
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A Harusch t-bar sounds very interesting
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Here are two of them: https://liftblog.com/mt-cain-bc/
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I wonder if the new creekside gondola will have a mid station at the base of redchair and continue up to the top of Garbo? I feel like this would be great because red chair is such a bottleneck and having a second section up to Garbo would relive it a lot.
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It won’t. Both new lifts will be the same alignment as the old ones.
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Okay thanks rob. I was also wondering about the franz detachable from the current base of the fixed grip triple to the top of the t bars. I have heard numerous rumours regarding big red parts being moved over to the new franzs chair this year? I have also heard that no one knows anything regarding that. I’m almost 100 percent sure this isn’t true at the moment. But would love to see something like this in the future. I’m hoping that it will happen sometime.
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Okay thanks rob. I was also wondering about the franz detachable from the current base of the fixed grip triple to the top of the t bars. I have heard numerous rumours regarding big red parts being moved over to the new franzs chair this year? I have also heard that no one knows anything regarding that. I’m almost 100 percent sure this isn’t true at the moment. But would love to see something like this in the future. I’m hoping that it will happen sometime.
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Red will be stripped for spares and the rest scrapped. The new Franz’s you mention is on the master plan. Timeline unknown.
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In light of Big Red and Creekside going away soon, I just did a major picture update for almost all of WBs lifts.
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Old orange chair https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/pistes-de-ski-et-t%C3%A9l%C3%A9ski-en-colombie-britannique-en-mars-news-photo/950011838
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Any info on the Abrakadabra platter? I don’t remember it at all despite skiing WB at the time it was installed.
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It was where the tube park is located now. The old skidder chair used to run on that alignment earlier. It was next to the parking lots. (7 & 8)
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Hey Peter I’m in Whistler right now would like me to take some photos of Creekside Gondola and Big Red
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what about the village yan chair? was it scrapped or sold?
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Before my time. Not sure what happened to it.
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Went to Kimberly and then to Whitefish.
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correct, it was the chair beside the current Northstar HSQ, I think there’s still some towers remaining the last time I was there.
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I would guess Vail will take a year or two off new lifts for here after 4 lifts in 2 years, but what would be the most likely next moves? Here are what I think:
1. Franz/Tbar 6
2. 7th Heaven 6
3. Garbanzo 6
4. Glacier 6
5.Whistler Village Gondola replacement
6. chair from Base 2 to Catskinner
7. Excalibur Gondola replacement and extension to Glacier Creek
8. Symphony return lift to Harmony Ridge
9. Bagel Bowl/lift between Creekside/Peak to Creek
10. Whistler South Expansion
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What about the Blackomb Tram?
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There is an expensive plan, but not sure where on the priority list it is. I guess it would drive visitation in the non-ski season, maybe a bit in the winter.
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1. Franz/Tbar I think will happen but HSQ with wind slats instead of HSS.
2. 7th Heaven won’t happen until some other things are done. For a new 7th heaven lift they are going to have to lower the ridge it sits on with blasting. Also once that’s done a fixed grip quad from top of glacier to top of seventh might be a good idea if there is no more movement of towers.
3. Garbanzo might happen at some point but probably not in the near future.
4. Glacier 6 is a good idea but it isn’t too crowded unless it’s a powder day and the new Jersey Cream will take pressure off it.
5. This will need to happen at some point but I don’t think it will in the immediate future as it is such a key lift.
7. I’m guessing it will be one or the other: Excalibur extension or HSQ from Base II to Cat Skinner. I think Excalibur is more likely considering it’s age.
8. Could happen but I don’t think it will anytime soon.
9. Bagel Bowl is a good idea to draw more skiers to that side of the mountain but again that won’t happen anytime soon plus they will need permits in order to clear trees and that may take a bit of time.
10. I don’t think Whistler South will ever happen. Too low elevation, snowmaking costs, etc.
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I was a bit surprised they didn’t reuse Big Red to replace Franz’s like they did with Catskinner at Blackcomb. I know they wanted the parts but it’s a pretty standard spacejet with DT’s so I’d imagine those are pretty easy to get.
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Red was going to need significant upgrades to comply with the current lift code that Emerald didn’t require. We had a party interested in taking it, but their analysis was there was better value in a new lift. Therefore we parted it out and scrapped the rest.
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I was hoping you’d reply, that’s interesting to know! I was expecting both emerald and big red to be pretty similar technically, any details about the upgrades it would have needed?
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Red was going to need a full electrical upgrade. Everything replaced as you can’t piecemeal an upgrade anymore. So new controls, hydraulics, tension system, drive, and probably motor.
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Thanks for answering! Would there be any similar challenges to relocating Fitzsimmons?
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Fitz and Garo are the first generation of lifts that we have that are still supported. Fitz will be parted out. Garbanzo is a candidate to move.
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Would the Tbar remain if Garbonzo was moved over to the Franz alignment?
Nostalgia reasons aside, it’s a great lift for the super windy days when the alpine lifts can’t run.
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It might. We have been using the T-bar for spring race training. The problem is aligning a new lift to avoid crossing the snowmaking pond. To do that the new detachable needs to unload where the T-bar is. May be possible to have both depending on where the bottom is located, or whether an evacuation system can be built for the pond crossing section.
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A Whistler Village Gondola replacement probably isn’t coming any time soon. Too substantial of a link to cut off for even part of a season and they’re refurbished and replaced just about every component of that lift.
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The VG does need replacement. Parts a hard, not impossible yet. We have done a lot of work on it, but the big issue is it no longer has the capacity and reliability we need for all the things it does. It will be a major disruption, but we have no choice to put up with it. My hope would be in 2025 we replace Garbo with a six and move the quad to the Franz alignment. This gives some replacement capacity out of the village. The VG is a two year project. It is a narrow gauge lift and new higher capacity replacements are much wider gauge. Year one would be all the surgery on the buildings. (replace the bottom terminal/rentals/GR/GLC with a new building?) and maybe some tower footings. Year two is the lift replacement which may be more than an off season (not that we have one). As you can imagine this will be really expensive. I’m not sure where this lies in the corporate priority list, but is number one on my list.
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Do you know what is the priority list for upgrades?
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No. That all happens at higher paygrades than mine.
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Rob. Do u know how many towers the new fitz will have. And chairs. Is it too drive?
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Fitz is top drive, has 19 towers and 87 carriers.
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Is there any news on more replacements at whistler blackcomb??
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Nothing committed after Jersey Cream in 2024.
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Don’t quote me on this either, but village gondola might be coming after Jersey Cream according to someone I know who works here. Not fully sure though, as I don’t know whether it really is a priority. It’s working fine.
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Good Footage of the 1987 HSQ installations
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Gawd they need to replace the whistler village gondola. First day and I’ve been stuck in it for 20 minutes. Its so bad.
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One stop and the world ends. I totally get it. Lifts are complex and cover all sorta ground and are engineering marvels, but whatever. I get super po’d if I’m delayed at all while doing white privilege. If I’m unhappy, everyone needs to drop everything and fix things for me, damn the torpedoes and the cost. RIGHT NOW. I’M TALKIN TO YOU, KRISTIN. YOU FEEL ME?!
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Wow you took that way out of line holy. I was just saying that they should replace it and they are planning on it. Jesus you’re a Karen.
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The way I (and, apparently, Billuh) read your comment, you think it needs to be replaced because it stopped. All lifts stop. Unless you’re in the operator shack looking at the screen, you don’t know why, which is understandably frustrating but doesn’t automatically mean a lift needs to be replaced.
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Replacements list Jan. 2024 in my opinion:
1. Jersey Cream 6 (D Line)
2. WVG replacement (Uni G, uniform with BCG)
3. Gondola from WVG base to BCG base (Uni G, uniform with BCG)
4. Excalibur replacement and realignment=BCG base to current end; extend to glacier chair base. (Uni G, uniform with BCG)
5. Blackcomb tram?? Rendezvous to peak?
6. Crystal ridge 4 (Uni G) (for the purpose of a pure dopp resort, an impressive accomplishment.)
7. Fixed grip replacements (see above)
8. Hortsman double: base of ruby to showcase (too steep?)
9. Showcase quad
10. Flute HSQ: base of symphony to Flute Bowl
11. Creekside expansion: network of lifts up the ridge to the right of the Creekside gondola.
Let me know if your thoughts and anything I messed. Some of these are really not necessary, like the crystal ridge and fixed grip replacements, but tell me you’re thinking, if you scrolled this far. THESE ARE NOT ON ORDER!!!!!!
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Replacements list Jan. 2024 in my opinion:
1. Jersey Cream 6 (D Line) Will be a UNI-G. Already produced. Installation in 2024.
2. WVG replacement (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Lots of options, but the rope gauge is a limiting factor depending on the capacity chosen. Tri-Line is an option as well, but would require significant building changes.
3. Gondola from WVG base to BCG base (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Simply no room for these terminals. Not happening.
4. Excalibur replacement and realignment=BCG base to current end; extend to glacier chair base. (Uni G, uniform with BCG) Agree this gondola needs to finish at JC flats, but needs to start in the village where it currently does. Lots of people access Blackcomb from here. Could be 2 or 3 sections depending on your view of downloading from the current unload.
5. Blackcomb tram?? Rendezvous to peak? There is a plan for it. Tied to the 7th heaven replacement.
6. Crystal ridge 4 (Uni G) (for the purpose of a pure dopp resort, an impressive accomplishment.) Not likely. Too many other priorities. I would think this will only happen if it needs to be upgraded to a 6 pack.
7. Fixed grip replacements (see above) I’d love to see the end of the Yans, but they get the job they need to do done. Newer fixed grip technology would be an improvement though.
8. Hortsman double: base of ruby to showcase (too steep?) There is a lift in the master plan like this. Would be difficult to operate. Maybe something from swamp thing (bottom of Blackcomb glacier) to top of Crystal chair would work better.
9. Showcase quad. We need to do something here as the T-bar alignment is untenable. The glacier is a big factor in what is possible.
10. Flute HSQ: base of symphony to Flute Bowl. Plan is to take it to the top of Flute. Not a priority at this time. Could also do a short fixed grip from the Piccolo-Flute col to the top of Flute to eliminate the hike.
11. Creekside expansion: network of lifts up the ridge to the right of the Creekside gondola. The whole Khyber expansion is in the master plan. Will be super expensive as it is a greenfield site that will require utility servicing, roads, runs etc. No timeline yet.
Let me know if your thoughts and anything I messed. Some of these are really not necessary, like the crystal ridge and fixed grip replacements, but tell me you’re thinking, if you scrolled this far. THESE ARE NOT ON ORDER!!!!!!
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So cool to get an insider’s perspective on all this. Thank you for all your comments Rob.
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Rob-
I think JC 6 will happen with Garbo 6 I’ve heard lots and lots of rumours abt that I’m not fully convinced though? Move old Garbo to franzs. But then they prolly will replace wvg??? A tri line that sounds cool?! Like a 3s gondy. R they actually thinking abt that? If a gondola they should make it a D line. Then 7th zone with tram maybe?! Or yellow chair. A peak 6. Excalibur replacement. Vail theoretically will be replacing a lift a year or a couple.
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JC will be changed in ’24. A logical move after that would be to upgrade Garbanzo, to increase capacity out of the village before replacing the WVG, which would probably require it to be out of service for a year. Having said that I think there is a way to do it with only having it out of service for summer. A lot depends on the exact plan for it’s replacement. There are a number of options here, which heavily depend on the chosen capacity. Poma could do this, or more likely some flavor of D-line/Tri-line. As for all the other lifts, we (and the rest of Vail) have many lifts that are becoming difficult if not impossible to support and there really needs to be a robust replacement program. (Think epic lift upgrade year, every year, for the next 10-20 years)
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That’s so interesting. I feel like given whistler is a doppie mountain poma probably wouldn’t be on the radar?! That’s so cool though. I hope we get an announcement sooner then later.
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