As I recall, the original Gad 1 ran from the current base of what is now the Mid Gad lift, and ended in the flat area in front of the Mid Gad restaurant. This allowed direct access to Gad 2.
I now think the first Gad 1 was installed in 1971 along with the tram, Gad 2 and Wilbere. In 1980, Gad 1 was replaced with a longer Gad 1 and Mid Gad was added on the other side of the restaurant. One or more of the 1980 lifts probably used parts from the first Gad 1, as it was only 9 years old. The longer Gad 1 was itself replaced in 1997 while Mid Gad has remained in its original alignment since 1980.
Are you saying that mid gad was relocated from the first gad 1? You would think it would be cheaper to relocate the first gad 1 to mid gad then add gad 1 2.0 as a new chairlift. Also Wilbere chairlift is also called Wilbere ridge.
If the original Gad 1 was fully replaced, why does Gadzoom have 70s Doppelmayr towers on the section from Creekside up to Mid Gad Lodge and 80s Doppelmayr towers after the lodge? It looks to me like the original Gad 1 was extended and Mid Gad was installed to replace the lower section of the original Gad 1.
I don’t think that anyone is claiming that the lifts were replaced in their entirety. Merely that there would’ve been a mix of new and used components for the construction in 1980.
I’d like to see a lift starting near the bottom of Peruvian and the Tram and ascending to the top of wildcat at Alta, which would be very useful to quickly get from snowbird to Big cottonwood if the Grizzly Gulch connection ever becomes a thing.
A short lift up from near the top of Peruvian to the top of Baldy would also be nice to see to eliminate the hike, not sure if that’s very possible with the wind situation up there though. The existing Mid-gad could be reused there.
You mean a interconnect chairlift that goes over the ridge? Kinda like the lift in france that has a huge breakover with 5 towers. I thought of the same idea on badly peak but with a T-bar since they are more wind resistant.
The Keyhole lift would be a 4,000 feet long Double or Triple chairlift (Possibly reuse the existing mid-gad chair here?), with approximately a 1,600 foot vertical drop. It would pretty much have to allow for downloading. Bottom terminal would be crammed in the base area. The lift probably wouldn’t allow boarders (seeing as it would end in alta), and both alta and snowbird ticket scanners could be at the bottom. It could make the current Baldy (the second HSQ in Mineral Basin) obsolete, and become the new main alta-snowbird connector lift.
Baldy (option 1) would be a short T-bar or double chairlift (existing Wilbere chair?) from near the top of Peruvian to the top of Baldy. It would be about 1,300 feet long with approximately a 800 foot vertical drop. This makes more sense than putting the lift where the hike currently is, because this line allows for access from both the tram and from Peruvian. The T-bar might not be possible on this steep of a slope, and if that is the case, the double makes the most sense. This would allow you to reach Baldy in 2 lift rides from the Snowbird base area, or 3 from the Alta base area
Baldy (option 2) would be a 3,700 foot long High Speed Quad, which would climb 2,000 vertical feet. This lift probably isn’t possible with the wind situation on Baldy, but if possible, would be a very useful lift for experts. It would start near where the Peruvian double dropped off, and continue from there up to the peak. This would allow expert skiers to reach Baldy in 2 lift rides from the Alta-Wildcat base area. This alignment would be significantly better for laps on both the Snowbird and Alta sides of Baldy. With option 1, you would spend a lot of time lapping the bottom 900 vertical of Snowbird and riding Peruvian/Tram, whereas with this alignment, you could actually lap the lift.
Finally, here’s what it would look like on google earth (blue lines are existing snowbird lifts, yellow lines are existing alta lifts, red lines are the lifts I’m proposing)-
For starters, wilbere would be replaced in a new alignment, ending where it does now, but beginning where mid gad currently begins. It would be a 2,500 foot long High Speed Quad with a 700 foot vertical drop.
Mid gad would be removed. Gadzoom would be replaced with a High Speed Six (or eight), with 2 midstations. The first would be where the current mid-gad midstation is, and the second would be where mid-gad currently ends. Gadzoom would stay the same as a 6,600 foot lift with a 1,800 foot vertical drop.
Baby Thunder would be replaced by a HSQ that would run up to where Gadzooks and Bananas intersect. A mid-unload would be located where the lift currently ends. This lift would be 5,100 feet long with a 1700 foot vertical drop.
I like the idea of a Keyhole lift, but I just have no idea where the base would go with the mountain coaster being located right next to Peruvian (where a Keyhole lift station would go). Regarding a Baldy lift, it does have a few potential problems, namely increased traffic on the Baldy Chutes at Alta and the wind. However, if it were to happen, I think the best option would be basically your option 2 but starting a little farther down where Rothman Way/Chip’s Run/Think Young intersect just to allow a few more of those runs off Cirque Traverse to feed in.
Regarding the Gad Valley changes, I think Gadzoom is fine as it is and doesn’t need to go to a six/eight pack. Perhaps a second detachable quad from the base up to Boundary Bowl, creating a new blue run down in the process. I agree Mid Gad can go, but I don’t know if that means Gadzoom need any mid stations. Also don’t know if Wilbere needs to go high speed due to its length and I don’t think its base should move, as its primary purpose is helping skiers get back and forth from Peruvian to Gad and back, hence its base being located approximately halfway between the two areas. Baby Thunder is the mountain’s primary beginner lift and there is no base area located at the bottom of the lift, so I don’t know if it would be a good idea to draw skiers away from the Gad base over to the Baby Thunder base, especially as those new expert skiers may intimidate the beginners.
In addition to the two Mary Ellen Gulch lifts Snowbird is planning, I think a lift in Scotty’s Bowl east of the current boundary would be a nice addition.
I don’t think you understand how gnarly the keyhole area is. Like genuine double diamond, chutes or mandatory air stuff. No way there should be any more people over there. Baldy also is rocky as hell up top, you don’t ski the Snowbird front side from the top. High Baldy is as high as you go. The extended Thunder lift doesn’t make sense either. When you come out of the Tiger Tail area, you just get on the track back to Zoom, you don’t ski all the way to Baby T.
The only problem spot at Snowbird is Mineral. That needs to be a six, which does let them do something with the old quad.
It could go here, about 30 feet behind Peruvian. While this would be a tight place to put it, keep in mind that Peruvian has 90 degree loading, and once this chair gets off the ground, it is going to the blue circle in the top left, so it could just maybe work. Still would have to clear the mountain coaster, but it’s a lot better than putting it somewhere else-
With Mid-Gad removed, Gadzoom would likely need more capacity, so a low capacity 6 makes sense. Snowbird is currently planning to upgrade Wilbere in the alignment I suggested (as a lift for their racing team). It also would provide as backup if Gadzoom went down and mid gad didn’t exist anymore.
If a lift ever goes up to Boundary or thunder bowl, I think it should start closer to Baby Thunder, because most of the runs in that area end too low to get to the Gadzoom base.
If Wilbere was moved, the first mid-station would be less needed actually, but the restaurant mid-unload would still be useful for quickly getting to gad 2 and obviously providing access to the restaurant.
The whole point of the keyhole lift would be to get skiers up to Alta. It wouldn’t be a lift for laps, it would be a lift so that if one Wasatch (or parts of it) ever happen, you’d have a chance to actually be able to get from Snowbird to Big Cottonwood and still have time left to ski. The lift would have to have high downloading capacity, and most people trying to get from Alta back to Snowbird would either download or take westward ho.
I hate to railroad your gad valley proposals but they dont really make sense to me. I think wilbere, mid gad, and baby thunder should stay how it is.
The service road/cat track where wilbere ends wouldn’t support even a low capacity high speed quad, and the current base of wilbere is nice for people staying in the lodges to get to the ski area without walking to gad valley or the snowbird center. My family has skied at snowbird since they opened and we have a timeshare at iron blossom. Wilbere also helps skiers get between gad valley and the snowbird center base area. The additonal capacity on wilbere isnt really needed
Getting rid of mid gad isn’t the best idea but debatable, if snowbird removed mid gad the only chairlift out of gad valley would be gadzoom. If gadzoom were to break down or be closed down, mid gad would still be there to get people up or out of gad valley. Mid gad’s mid station also serves beginner terrain. With mid gad gone everyone would share the same lift and there would be more slowdowns/stops with beginner skiers getting off or on the lift. Mid gad also gives alternate access to the mid gad lodge and to gad 2.
I don’t really see the point of extending baby thunder uphill other than access to gad 2 and higher capacity from a high speed quad isn’t really needed at baby thunder
I agree with gadzoom being upgraded to a six person high speed chairlift and a unload midstation at mid gad lodge. With mid gad already servicing the terrain park and beginner terrain. There is no need for a mid station at the terrain park.
Biggest priority right now as far as a new chairlift at snowbird is mineral basin. Its not uncommon to have horseshoe of skiers/snowboarders around the bottom terminal of mineral basin, the expansion below mineral basin is too low in elevation in my opinion.
I agree with mineral basin high speed six and gadzoom high speed six. Also the baldy T-Bar. Double chair wont work because of wind problems. T-Bars are more wind sustainable. I dont like the new race lift plans. Wilbere is one of my favorite lifts at snowbird. Old gad 2 and wilbere ridge both have non bullwheel loading. Same thing with Thaynes at park city. The Wilbere ridge double chair currently can handle the numbers just fine right now. Mid gad should stay where it is right now. The mid station serves most of the beginner terrain at snowbird besides chickadee.
The keyhole lift is a good idea but it should be like the lift in france with a huge breakover. Not the top station on the ridge line. The only problem is ridgetop winds and the mountain coaster. I think the snowbird side of keyhole lift station would be on the right side of Peruvian. Crossing over Peruvian and possibly sharing a tower tube. Ending next to wildcat drive terminal.
Correction on keyhole lift. The terminal would start behind the mountain coaster. Cross over the ridgeline. then end by wildcat drive terminal. https://prnt.sc/n9cdhrhttps://prnt.sc/n9cehe
This is just my idea. I say keep wildcat where it is right now.
I am not sure, but my three guesses would be Save Our Canyons and ease of access. Save Our Canyons is honestly probably the reason. Alta has been trying to develop Grizzly Gulch for skiing on land that they own and they have been going crazy to stop it, so the same would go for Snowbird. It is also impossible to reach the top of Scotty’s Bowl from the top of Gad 2. You could theoretically put an additional traverse across right above Figure 8 Bowl to reach the bottom of a Scotty’s Bowl lift and then have the top terminate on the ledge between the top of Scotty’s Bowl and Boundary Bowl. However, this would be a purely double diamond lift and area with the current trail system, so Snowbird (like most ski resorts) will probably not invest in a lift unless there is at least one blue or green run from top to bottom.
Last I heard, Snowbird is indeed still pursuing. They were still cleaning up the area as of Summer 2019 (the last non-COVID offseason) because there is a decent amount of waste leftover from mining the gulch years ago. Once that is all cleaned up, I imagine it will be another couple of years until lifts are installed due to them needing to finalize the lift/trail alignments, get everything approved, and then commit the needed capital.
Snowbird needs some major updates as it is always very crowded and overflowed with people due to the amount of skiing space. Here are a few things I think snowbird could do to help:
Gadzoom should be replaced with a High Speed Six, as it is the main lift, and has very long lines in the morning. It also only runs at about 850fpm. With the HSQ, they could relocate it to a new lift, going up to Sunday Saddle, or take out Mid-Gad for it. If they put it in the Mid-Gad alignment they could cut it at the midstation, as almost no one goes to the top unless if an extremely busy day.
The Tram is very cool, but turning it into an 8 person gondola could definitely upgrade capacity. Since the tram is only 1000pph, they could upgrade to gondola, increasing capacity. Increasing capacity to 2800pph would be a good idea. It also is a key lift for powder days, carrying many people up, and down. It also runs all summer as well, so the tram gets many high hours. (also the tram got new hanger arms in 2019)
Mineral Basin should be upgraded to a High Speed Six as well, as I’ve had to stand in 45+ minute lines at Mineral. It is the only way out (if you want to get back to the main mountain, as Baldy can give you access to Alta) and is a key base area on a powder day.
A lift going from the base of Little Cloud to the top of Gad 2 would be a good lift, as there would be 2 ways to get up to that area. Gad 2 has its own trail pod off of it, so it gets very long lines occasionally. It could act as a reliever for Gad 2 on crowded days, even if it was a 2-CLF
A lift to the top of Mount Baldy. It is a short hike, but even a rope tow or platter would be a much better option than hiking. I feel making it a chairlift is not necessary as only very skilled skiers can ski Baldy, and you wouldn’t want so many people getting your powder.
I agree 100% with your idea for Mineral Basin and Gadzoom. For the tram, how could an 8 person gondola cross that alignment? There’s not enough room up top for a gondola terminal, along with the problem with the wind. Replacing the tram would also make a lot of people angry. The current tram works just fine anyway. A detachable backup to Gadzoom makes a lot of sense for redundancy reasons.
my mom’s uncle used to be the CEO of Snowbird in the 1980s and he planned out the whole mineral basin expansion and I know for sure he had little thunder built. From what I know he helped save snowbird from going out of business and streamlined the whole resort. But now so many people want to ski there that now all that streamlined need to be streamlined again.
For the top station, they could do something like the Keystone gondola, where it sits on a vault drive and has a really tall mast on the end of the station. Again, these are my ideas, but the reasons for my ideas is because I ski snowbird almost every day and I know what could maybe help them.
Gadzoom could definitely use an upgrade, but I think there also needs to just be a second detachable lift out of Gad Valley/Creekside (Mid-Gad is a pointless lift these days). Perhaps something up west of Gad 2 to Boundary Bowl and that area? It could potentially bring Scotty’s Bowl into resort boundaries as well. I do agree a Sunday Saddle lift would be nice in Mineral Basin.
I am really not sure how a monocable gondola would fare with the wind conditions. Plus, the tram cars are iconic. I think a 3S gondola with a capacity of around 2000-2500 would be a good middle ground. Definitely expensive, but Powdr seems okay with large expenditures if they are important to improving the skier experience.
I know a Mineral Basin upgrade is planned for the Mary Ellen Gulch expansion. They want to relocate the bottom terminal downhill, but I do not know if six-person chairs are also in the plan. I agree it would be beneficial, especially if Mary Ellen Gulch does happen and it gets more traffic.
I do not think a Gad 2 fixed-grip reliever is really necessary. Yes, it can get busy, but much less so than elsewhere at the resort. Plus, a second out-of-base detachable lift from Creekside would really help better spread people around Gad Valley.
A Mount Baldy lift may be coming soon from Alta, so that would solve this problem. However, I do agree that a surface lift would be nice to eliminate the hike. Maybe up from High Baldy Traverse along the ridge?
I don’t think there’s enough room on Hidden Peak for a 3s terminal. Is the tram that worth it to replace? They replaced some aging parts a few years ago including the haul rope if I’m correct.
The Summit restaurant isn’t going anywhere. It wouldn’t make sense to demolish the highest restaurant in Utah for just upgrading the tram, which doesn’t really need an upgrade. A much cheaper option could be to run a lift from the top of Peruvian to Hidden Peak, but the wind up there can get strong.
I don’t think Alta ever had a Bell gondola… Yan double chair carriers happen to look very similar to Hjorth/Hunzinger/Western Lift & Crane lifts that Mammoth had.
Snowbird is becoming ever so popular, it feels a lot busier today than it did just a few short years ago. Based on my experiences skiing snowbird, Mineral Basin could use more capacity, and Mid-Gad is an underutilized alternative to Gadzoom. For better or worse none of Snowbird’s lifts are terribly high in capacity.
If Snowbird were to add any lift tomorrow, I think a lift along the lower section of Peruvian Gulch would be nice. There’s some nice runs a long there, and it could perhaps maybe move some traffic from elsewhere on the mountain. Chip’s run can get scraped off pretty quickly making top to bottom laps on P-dog and the Tram a pain sometimes. It would create a nice little pod of mostly expert trails.
To the person who suggested a lift up to the top of Hidden Peak starting at the top of Peruvian, that was one of the original purposes of the tunnel, since the connection back to Mineral Basin would take you to the top. Unfortunately, with how long the lines can get at the Mineral Basin lift, this is oftentimes a terrible way to the top.
Mid Gad as someone else already said is a lift to nowhere, but it needs to stick around as an alternative to Gadzoom and to service the lower section of Gad Valley via the mid-station.
Snowbird has talked about relocating the Wilbere chair to run along Wilbere Ridge instead of in its current alignment to provide better service for its race team as well as allow one seat access to the Snowbird Centre from Creekside. I see advantages to both alignments, in its current form it provides much better access out of the “main lot” and “wilbere hill” parking lots.
Infrastructure issues run past just chairlifts, the LCC road is quite an adventure at times too. Alta next door will have paid in advance parking on weekends next year, in an attempt to try to mitigate some of these challenges. Meanwhile, Snowbird will still have free parking, but is reducing the amount of free parking, with paid parking taking its place in some of the more desirable lots. Ultimately we’ll just have to wait and see what the future brings for Snowbird.
That depends on how much weight the towers were designed to accommodate. I am not sure that any of the lifts at Snowbird can accommodate more chairs then they already have on them. While re-engineering a lift’s profile to add infill towers is certainly possible, this is a significant expense that most often does not make sense.
Are you essentially proposing a lift along the old Peruvian line? If so, I’m 100% on board with that, despite my love of P-Dog. That makes transit to the Gad side a lot easier from the base, as Rothman’s is a lot nicer than Creek Road as it’s now called. Much of the best part of the Peruvian side is right at the bottom, and there are just a lot more options in general at the bottom than farther up the gulch, so extra capacity makes sense.
I’ve never found it necessary to get all the way to the peak without MBX or the Tram, since the only runs on the front side you cannot ski from Peruvian or LC are Upper Silver Fox, Baldy, and Great Scott via the Rat’s Nest (which is a horrible idea). I also have no interest in the restaurant on the top, but perhaps that changes the equation somewhat.
Wilbere and Mid-Gad are ok solutions to hard problems. Both Mid-Gad and Gadzoom are one seat access to Snowbird Centre via Dick Bass or Fluffy Bunny. The problem with the Gad Valley side is that one run is already massively overtrafficked, but there still needs to be a capacity boost on that side. While adding capacity to Mid-Gad or Gadzoom via an upgrade absolutely does solve several problems, it’s going to put an unbelievable amount of people on the Bassackwards -> Big Emma run. So the question becomes, how do you shift intermediate traffic to other zones of the mountain? Wilbere could certainly be part of that solution, but what makes the most sense? A realigned HSQ running essentially up Bryce’s/Wilbere Ridge? Consistent good grooming on Harper’s and Harper’s East, coupled with an upgraded lift near the current alignment? I’m not sure, but that double just turned 50, so it’s going to need replacement at some point. Not a lot of lifts from the 60s left, although there certainly are some. That will be the case for 70s lifts soon, and Snowbird would do well to make sure it’s done right when the replacement does come. Mid-Gad has more time left, but something needs to happen on that side.
MBX needed a six pack ten years ago. I don’t want to imagine what that lift line is going to look like if they keep putting it off. That will leave a 90s HSQ floating around to move to Wilbere/Mid-Gad/somewhere else if they want to, but the current lift has taken a beating from the weather, runs a long winter season, and has some summer hours. It certainly feels older than it is when you ride it.
Baldy is the most underutilized area of the mountain. There’s never a line, and it’s got some great cruising terrain. The line at MBX is probably the main deterrent to more people heading that way, since the only other way out is via Alta. Not a bad idea to try and redirect some traffic to Baldy once they address Mineral.
You’re dead on about parking. Something needs to happen, and a lot of different ski areas with similar problems are trying various things. The size of the park and ride at the bottom of LCC is not helping. I’m wondering about the practicality of expanding that, or if the 90S, BCC, and 62S park and rides will have to do.
Love everything about this take. Especially agree on MBX, particularly if they move forward with the Mary Ellen Gulch expansion. Only question is how you’d propose to “redirect some traffic to Baldy”. It’s decent cruising terrain, but for the vast majority of skiers/riders it’s also a dead end b/c only a small % of people have a ticket that allows them to access Alta. Even if you can access Alta from that side, 95% of people can’t get back to Snowbird w/o going back via Baldy pod – not like intermediates are going to cruise down the Keyhole.
Thanks for the analysis. Yes, a lift along the old Peruvian line is essentially what I was thinking. It’s possible there’s a better alignment that could be found, but essentially would be just that still.
It’s true that getting to the peak is not very important either to the overall skiing experience.
The MBX quad does feel very beat up, but it can probably be refurbished enough to still be worthwhile installing it elsewhere. Mineral Basin should definitely become LCC’s first 6 pack (and I don’t think Alta will pull the 6er trigger unless they do it as part of the Sunnyside Chondola upgrade).
They did have a bootpack this year with COVID to get up to the ridge separating Mineral from Peruvian Gulch, so you could get to High Baldy traverse on just one lift ride and a little bit of hiking, which was nice.
I don’t typically ski lower Gad Valley, but Big Emma has too much traffic on it for sure.
With regards to the park and ride question, if the LCC gondola ever gets built they’re going to need a decently large parking structure for it, otherwise I fear that it will have less of an impact than desired.
With plans to extend down towards Mary Ellen Gulch, and parking/traffic/avy issues on the main road… An idea starts to form in the head of anybody who looks at this… I know they super-duper promised they wouldn’t do this, but maybe they should re-examine it.
The other obvious idea is having people go through BCC if Grizzly Gulch is ever built. They should look into that too.
I have no idea how it would even fit but I really think reviving the old Peruvian liftline would be really useful for providing more lappable terrain. The lift could be made by relocating Mineral basin or Gadzoom.
Lift Blog 
Does anyone have pictures of Chickadee before the concrete floor went above it and Gad1?
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http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/ut-snowbird/chickadee/chickadee.htm I cant find any gad 1 pictures.
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I find it interesting that there is a doghouse underneath the old gad 1 terminal
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https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=964865&page=9&q=ski+lift&facet_type_t=%22Image%22 I just found another one
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Where did Gad 1 run? Because the high speed quad Gadzoom was built before Gad 1 was removed.
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pretty sure the spread is wrong and Gad 1 was removed in 97 with the new quad… cant find it on maps from 97-01
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As I recall, the original Gad 1 ran from the current base of what is now the Mid Gad lift, and ended in the flat area in front of the Mid Gad restaurant. This allowed direct access to Gad 2.
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One more thing. It says on the old trail map that gad 2 was unavailable to snowboarders??? https://skimap.org/data/226/7/1228452469.jpg
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I now think the first Gad 1 was installed in 1971 along with the tram, Gad 2 and Wilbere. In 1980, Gad 1 was replaced with a longer Gad 1 and Mid Gad was added on the other side of the restaurant. One or more of the 1980 lifts probably used parts from the first Gad 1, as it was only 9 years old. The longer Gad 1 was itself replaced in 1997 while Mid Gad has remained in its original alignment since 1980.
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Are you saying that mid gad was relocated from the first gad 1? You would think it would be cheaper to relocate the first gad 1 to mid gad then add gad 1 2.0 as a new chairlift. Also Wilbere chairlift is also called Wilbere ridge.
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I believe this is correct, based on anecdotes I’ve gotten from talking to various people around the resort.
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If the original Gad 1 was fully replaced, why does Gadzoom have 70s Doppelmayr towers on the section from Creekside up to Mid Gad Lodge and 80s Doppelmayr towers after the lodge? It looks to me like the original Gad 1 was extended and Mid Gad was installed to replace the lower section of the original Gad 1.
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I don’t think that anyone is claiming that the lifts were replaced in their entirety. Merely that there would’ve been a mix of new and used components for the construction in 1980.
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Here’s a photo of Chickadee from years ago https://mountainscholar.org/bitstream/handle/11124/9455/R1177.jpg
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I’d like to see a lift starting near the bottom of Peruvian and the Tram and ascending to the top of wildcat at Alta, which would be very useful to quickly get from snowbird to Big cottonwood if the Grizzly Gulch connection ever becomes a thing.
A short lift up from near the top of Peruvian to the top of Baldy would also be nice to see to eliminate the hike, not sure if that’s very possible with the wind situation up there though. The existing Mid-gad could be reused there.
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You mean a interconnect chairlift that goes over the ridge? Kinda like the lift in france that has a huge breakover with 5 towers. I thought of the same idea on badly peak but with a T-bar since they are more wind resistant.
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The lifts would be like (the red lines) this-
The Keyhole lift would be a 4,000 feet long Double or Triple chairlift (Possibly reuse the existing mid-gad chair here?), with approximately a 1,600 foot vertical drop. It would pretty much have to allow for downloading. Bottom terminal would be crammed in the base area. The lift probably wouldn’t allow boarders (seeing as it would end in alta), and both alta and snowbird ticket scanners could be at the bottom. It could make the current Baldy (the second HSQ in Mineral Basin) obsolete, and become the new main alta-snowbird connector lift.
Baldy (option 1) would be a short T-bar or double chairlift (existing Wilbere chair?) from near the top of Peruvian to the top of Baldy. It would be about 1,300 feet long with approximately a 800 foot vertical drop. This makes more sense than putting the lift where the hike currently is, because this line allows for access from both the tram and from Peruvian. The T-bar might not be possible on this steep of a slope, and if that is the case, the double makes the most sense. This would allow you to reach Baldy in 2 lift rides from the Snowbird base area, or 3 from the Alta base area
Baldy (option 2) would be a 3,700 foot long High Speed Quad, which would climb 2,000 vertical feet. This lift probably isn’t possible with the wind situation on Baldy, but if possible, would be a very useful lift for experts. It would start near where the Peruvian double dropped off, and continue from there up to the peak. This would allow expert skiers to reach Baldy in 2 lift rides from the Alta-Wildcat base area. This alignment would be significantly better for laps on both the Snowbird and Alta sides of Baldy. With option 1, you would spend a lot of time lapping the bottom 900 vertical of Snowbird and riding Peruvian/Tram, whereas with this alignment, you could actually lap the lift.
Finally, here’s what it would look like on google earth (blue lines are existing snowbird lifts, yellow lines are existing alta lifts, red lines are the lifts I’m proposing)-
As for the Gad Valley side of the mountain, I’d like to make even bigger changes- https://i.imgur.com/lRzBXoj.jpg
For starters, wilbere would be replaced in a new alignment, ending where it does now, but beginning where mid gad currently begins. It would be a 2,500 foot long High Speed Quad with a 700 foot vertical drop.
Mid gad would be removed. Gadzoom would be replaced with a High Speed Six (or eight), with 2 midstations. The first would be where the current mid-gad midstation is, and the second would be where mid-gad currently ends. Gadzoom would stay the same as a 6,600 foot lift with a 1,800 foot vertical drop.
Baby Thunder would be replaced by a HSQ that would run up to where Gadzooks and Bananas intersect. A mid-unload would be located where the lift currently ends. This lift would be 5,100 feet long with a 1700 foot vertical drop.
Google earth view- https://i.imgur.com/fhW7D68.png
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I like the idea of a Keyhole lift, but I just have no idea where the base would go with the mountain coaster being located right next to Peruvian (where a Keyhole lift station would go). Regarding a Baldy lift, it does have a few potential problems, namely increased traffic on the Baldy Chutes at Alta and the wind. However, if it were to happen, I think the best option would be basically your option 2 but starting a little farther down where Rothman Way/Chip’s Run/Think Young intersect just to allow a few more of those runs off Cirque Traverse to feed in.
Regarding the Gad Valley changes, I think Gadzoom is fine as it is and doesn’t need to go to a six/eight pack. Perhaps a second detachable quad from the base up to Boundary Bowl, creating a new blue run down in the process. I agree Mid Gad can go, but I don’t know if that means Gadzoom need any mid stations. Also don’t know if Wilbere needs to go high speed due to its length and I don’t think its base should move, as its primary purpose is helping skiers get back and forth from Peruvian to Gad and back, hence its base being located approximately halfway between the two areas. Baby Thunder is the mountain’s primary beginner lift and there is no base area located at the bottom of the lift, so I don’t know if it would be a good idea to draw skiers away from the Gad base over to the Baby Thunder base, especially as those new expert skiers may intimidate the beginners.
In addition to the two Mary Ellen Gulch lifts Snowbird is planning, I think a lift in Scotty’s Bowl east of the current boundary would be a nice addition.
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I don’t think you understand how gnarly the keyhole area is. Like genuine double diamond, chutes or mandatory air stuff. No way there should be any more people over there. Baldy also is rocky as hell up top, you don’t ski the Snowbird front side from the top. High Baldy is as high as you go. The extended Thunder lift doesn’t make sense either. When you come out of the Tiger Tail area, you just get on the track back to Zoom, you don’t ski all the way to Baby T.
The only problem spot at Snowbird is Mineral. That needs to be a six, which does let them do something with the old quad.
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It could go here, about 30 feet behind Peruvian. While this would be a tight place to put it, keep in mind that Peruvian has 90 degree loading, and once this chair gets off the ground, it is going to the blue circle in the top left, so it could just maybe work. Still would have to clear the mountain coaster, but it’s a lot better than putting it somewhere else-
With Mid-Gad removed, Gadzoom would likely need more capacity, so a low capacity 6 makes sense. Snowbird is currently planning to upgrade Wilbere in the alignment I suggested (as a lift for their racing team). It also would provide as backup if Gadzoom went down and mid gad didn’t exist anymore.
If a lift ever goes up to Boundary or thunder bowl, I think it should start closer to Baby Thunder, because most of the runs in that area end too low to get to the Gadzoom base.
If Wilbere was moved, the first mid-station would be less needed actually, but the restaurant mid-unload would still be useful for quickly getting to gad 2 and obviously providing access to the restaurant.
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The whole point of the keyhole lift would be to get skiers up to Alta. It wouldn’t be a lift for laps, it would be a lift so that if one Wasatch (or parts of it) ever happen, you’d have a chance to actually be able to get from Snowbird to Big Cottonwood and still have time left to ski. The lift would have to have high downloading capacity, and most people trying to get from Alta back to Snowbird would either download or take westward ho.
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I hate to railroad your gad valley proposals but they dont really make sense to me. I think wilbere, mid gad, and baby thunder should stay how it is.
The service road/cat track where wilbere ends wouldn’t support even a low capacity high speed quad, and the current base of wilbere is nice for people staying in the lodges to get to the ski area without walking to gad valley or the snowbird center. My family has skied at snowbird since they opened and we have a timeshare at iron blossom. Wilbere also helps skiers get between gad valley and the snowbird center base area. The additonal capacity on wilbere isnt really needed
Getting rid of mid gad isn’t the best idea but debatable, if snowbird removed mid gad the only chairlift out of gad valley would be gadzoom. If gadzoom were to break down or be closed down, mid gad would still be there to get people up or out of gad valley. Mid gad’s mid station also serves beginner terrain. With mid gad gone everyone would share the same lift and there would be more slowdowns/stops with beginner skiers getting off or on the lift. Mid gad also gives alternate access to the mid gad lodge and to gad 2.
I don’t really see the point of extending baby thunder uphill other than access to gad 2 and higher capacity from a high speed quad isn’t really needed at baby thunder
I agree with gadzoom being upgraded to a six person high speed chairlift and a unload midstation at mid gad lodge. With mid gad already servicing the terrain park and beginner terrain. There is no need for a mid station at the terrain park.
Biggest priority right now as far as a new chairlift at snowbird is mineral basin. Its not uncommon to have horseshoe of skiers/snowboarders around the bottom terminal of mineral basin, the expansion below mineral basin is too low in elevation in my opinion.
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I agree with mineral basin high speed six and gadzoom high speed six. Also the baldy T-Bar. Double chair wont work because of wind problems. T-Bars are more wind sustainable. I dont like the new race lift plans. Wilbere is one of my favorite lifts at snowbird. Old gad 2 and wilbere ridge both have non bullwheel loading. Same thing with Thaynes at park city. The Wilbere ridge double chair currently can handle the numbers just fine right now. Mid gad should stay where it is right now. The mid station serves most of the beginner terrain at snowbird besides chickadee.
The keyhole lift is a good idea but it should be like the lift in france with a huge breakover. Not the top station on the ridge line. The only problem is ridgetop winds and the mountain coaster. I think the snowbird side of keyhole lift station would be on the right side of Peruvian. Crossing over Peruvian and possibly sharing a tower tube. Ending next to wildcat drive terminal.
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Correction on keyhole lift. The terminal would start behind the mountain coaster. Cross over the ridgeline. then end by wildcat drive terminal. https://prnt.sc/n9cdhr https://prnt.sc/n9cehe
This is just my idea. I say keep wildcat where it is right now.
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This wouldn’t be a lift up the mountain anymore, just simply a lift between the two base areas.
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If Scotty’s Bowl is Snowbird private property who or what has stopped them from developing it skiing?
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I am not sure, but my three guesses would be Save Our Canyons and ease of access. Save Our Canyons is honestly probably the reason. Alta has been trying to develop Grizzly Gulch for skiing on land that they own and they have been going crazy to stop it, so the same would go for Snowbird. It is also impossible to reach the top of Scotty’s Bowl from the top of Gad 2. You could theoretically put an additional traverse across right above Figure 8 Bowl to reach the bottom of a Scotty’s Bowl lift and then have the top terminate on the ledge between the top of Scotty’s Bowl and Boundary Bowl. However, this would be a purely double diamond lift and area with the current trail system, so Snowbird (like most ski resorts) will probably not invest in a lift unless there is at least one blue or green run from top to bottom.
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Mineral basin tensioning is in the bottom station. http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/ut-snowbird/mineralbasin/mineralbasin.htm
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I know you typically omit moving carpets, since they move around a bunch, but the Peruvian Tunnel is arguably a well-deserved exception to this rule.
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I agree, the Peruvian tunnel is one of a kind.
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Haven’t heard anything about the Mary Ellen expansion in a long time? Is Snowbird still pursuing?
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Last I heard, Snowbird is indeed still pursuing. They were still cleaning up the area as of Summer 2019 (the last non-COVID offseason) because there is a decent amount of waste leftover from mining the gulch years ago. Once that is all cleaned up, I imagine it will be another couple of years until lifts are installed due to them needing to finalize the lift/trail alignments, get everything approved, and then commit the needed capital.
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Snowbird needs some major updates as it is always very crowded and overflowed with people due to the amount of skiing space. Here are a few things I think snowbird could do to help:
Gadzoom should be replaced with a High Speed Six, as it is the main lift, and has very long lines in the morning. It also only runs at about 850fpm. With the HSQ, they could relocate it to a new lift, going up to Sunday Saddle, or take out Mid-Gad for it. If they put it in the Mid-Gad alignment they could cut it at the midstation, as almost no one goes to the top unless if an extremely busy day.
The Tram is very cool, but turning it into an 8 person gondola could definitely upgrade capacity. Since the tram is only 1000pph, they could upgrade to gondola, increasing capacity. Increasing capacity to 2800pph would be a good idea. It also is a key lift for powder days, carrying many people up, and down. It also runs all summer as well, so the tram gets many high hours. (also the tram got new hanger arms in 2019)
Mineral Basin should be upgraded to a High Speed Six as well, as I’ve had to stand in 45+ minute lines at Mineral. It is the only way out (if you want to get back to the main mountain, as Baldy can give you access to Alta) and is a key base area on a powder day.
A lift going from the base of Little Cloud to the top of Gad 2 would be a good lift, as there would be 2 ways to get up to that area. Gad 2 has its own trail pod off of it, so it gets very long lines occasionally. It could act as a reliever for Gad 2 on crowded days, even if it was a 2-CLF
A lift to the top of Mount Baldy. It is a short hike, but even a rope tow or platter would be a much better option than hiking. I feel making it a chairlift is not necessary as only very skilled skiers can ski Baldy, and you wouldn’t want so many people getting your powder.
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I like your Gadzoom idea.
The tram is iconic. I don’t see it going anywhere anytime soon, especially with the recent upgrades and supposedly the cabins being replaced soon.
A liner mineral basin 6 pack will probably be too much on the already crowded top area.
I’d rather see a lift from the Baby Thunder area to the bottom of Gad 2 than one from the base of Little Cloud to top of 2.
I don’t see the Baldy thing happening. Honestly if the Mary Ellen expansion ever happens that will probably spread people out enough.
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I agree 100% with your idea for Mineral Basin and Gadzoom. For the tram, how could an 8 person gondola cross that alignment? There’s not enough room up top for a gondola terminal, along with the problem with the wind. Replacing the tram would also make a lot of people angry. The current tram works just fine anyway. A detachable backup to Gadzoom makes a lot of sense for redundancy reasons.
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my mom’s uncle used to be the CEO of Snowbird in the 1980s and he planned out the whole mineral basin expansion and I know for sure he had little thunder built. From what I know he helped save snowbird from going out of business and streamlined the whole resort. But now so many people want to ski there that now all that streamlined need to be streamlined again.
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For the top station, they could do something like the Keystone gondola, where it sits on a vault drive and has a really tall mast on the end of the station. Again, these are my ideas, but the reasons for my ideas is because I ski snowbird almost every day and I know what could maybe help them.
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Gadzoom could definitely use an upgrade, but I think there also needs to just be a second detachable lift out of Gad Valley/Creekside (Mid-Gad is a pointless lift these days). Perhaps something up west of Gad 2 to Boundary Bowl and that area? It could potentially bring Scotty’s Bowl into resort boundaries as well. I do agree a Sunday Saddle lift would be nice in Mineral Basin.
I am really not sure how a monocable gondola would fare with the wind conditions. Plus, the tram cars are iconic. I think a 3S gondola with a capacity of around 2000-2500 would be a good middle ground. Definitely expensive, but Powdr seems okay with large expenditures if they are important to improving the skier experience.
I know a Mineral Basin upgrade is planned for the Mary Ellen Gulch expansion. They want to relocate the bottom terminal downhill, but I do not know if six-person chairs are also in the plan. I agree it would be beneficial, especially if Mary Ellen Gulch does happen and it gets more traffic.
I do not think a Gad 2 fixed-grip reliever is really necessary. Yes, it can get busy, but much less so than elsewhere at the resort. Plus, a second out-of-base detachable lift from Creekside would really help better spread people around Gad Valley.
A Mount Baldy lift may be coming soon from Alta, so that would solve this problem. However, I do agree that a surface lift would be nice to eliminate the hike. Maybe up from High Baldy Traverse along the ridge?
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I don’t think there’s enough room on Hidden Peak for a 3s terminal. Is the tram that worth it to replace? They replaced some aging parts a few years ago including the haul rope if I’m correct.
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Hidden peak won’t have room unless they take out the Summit Restaurant. They definitely won’t do this because it was build in 2018.
Another lift plan I though of was a hsq from the bottom of Baby thunder to the base of Gad 2.
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The Summit restaurant isn’t going anywhere. It wouldn’t make sense to demolish the highest restaurant in Utah for just upgrading the tram, which doesn’t really need an upgrade. A much cheaper option could be to run a lift from the top of Peruvian to Hidden Peak, but the wind up there can get strong.
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Does anyone know what ski area this is? Mountain Scholar says it’s from Snowbird, but it is clearly a Bell gondola. Could it be Mammoth?
https://mountainscholar.org/bitstream/handle/11124/8113/R1503.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
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Looks like Alta in my opinion.
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I don’t think Alta ever had a Bell gondola… Yan double chair carriers happen to look very similar to Hjorth/Hunzinger/Western Lift & Crane lifts that Mammoth had.
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A duplicate of that photo says that it was Mammoth.
https://mountainscholar.org/bitstream/handle/11124/8188/R1550.jpg?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
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Wrong link, try this one:
https://mountainscholar.org/handle/11124/8188
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Snowbird is becoming ever so popular, it feels a lot busier today than it did just a few short years ago. Based on my experiences skiing snowbird, Mineral Basin could use more capacity, and Mid-Gad is an underutilized alternative to Gadzoom. For better or worse none of Snowbird’s lifts are terribly high in capacity.
If Snowbird were to add any lift tomorrow, I think a lift along the lower section of Peruvian Gulch would be nice. There’s some nice runs a long there, and it could perhaps maybe move some traffic from elsewhere on the mountain. Chip’s run can get scraped off pretty quickly making top to bottom laps on P-dog and the Tram a pain sometimes. It would create a nice little pod of mostly expert trails.
To the person who suggested a lift up to the top of Hidden Peak starting at the top of Peruvian, that was one of the original purposes of the tunnel, since the connection back to Mineral Basin would take you to the top. Unfortunately, with how long the lines can get at the Mineral Basin lift, this is oftentimes a terrible way to the top.
Mid Gad as someone else already said is a lift to nowhere, but it needs to stick around as an alternative to Gadzoom and to service the lower section of Gad Valley via the mid-station.
Snowbird has talked about relocating the Wilbere chair to run along Wilbere Ridge instead of in its current alignment to provide better service for its race team as well as allow one seat access to the Snowbird Centre from Creekside. I see advantages to both alignments, in its current form it provides much better access out of the “main lot” and “wilbere hill” parking lots.
Infrastructure issues run past just chairlifts, the LCC road is quite an adventure at times too. Alta next door will have paid in advance parking on weekends next year, in an attempt to try to mitigate some of these challenges. Meanwhile, Snowbird will still have free parking, but is reducing the amount of free parking, with paid parking taking its place in some of the more desirable lots. Ultimately we’ll just have to wait and see what the future brings for Snowbird.
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Wouldn’t a stopgap solution be to add more chairs to the existing lifts?
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That depends on how much weight the towers were designed to accommodate. I am not sure that any of the lifts at Snowbird can accommodate more chairs then they already have on them. While re-engineering a lift’s profile to add infill towers is certainly possible, this is a significant expense that most often does not make sense.
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Are you essentially proposing a lift along the old Peruvian line? If so, I’m 100% on board with that, despite my love of P-Dog. That makes transit to the Gad side a lot easier from the base, as Rothman’s is a lot nicer than Creek Road as it’s now called. Much of the best part of the Peruvian side is right at the bottom, and there are just a lot more options in general at the bottom than farther up the gulch, so extra capacity makes sense.
I’ve never found it necessary to get all the way to the peak without MBX or the Tram, since the only runs on the front side you cannot ski from Peruvian or LC are Upper Silver Fox, Baldy, and Great Scott via the Rat’s Nest (which is a horrible idea). I also have no interest in the restaurant on the top, but perhaps that changes the equation somewhat.
Wilbere and Mid-Gad are ok solutions to hard problems. Both Mid-Gad and Gadzoom are one seat access to Snowbird Centre via Dick Bass or Fluffy Bunny. The problem with the Gad Valley side is that one run is already massively overtrafficked, but there still needs to be a capacity boost on that side. While adding capacity to Mid-Gad or Gadzoom via an upgrade absolutely does solve several problems, it’s going to put an unbelievable amount of people on the Bassackwards -> Big Emma run. So the question becomes, how do you shift intermediate traffic to other zones of the mountain? Wilbere could certainly be part of that solution, but what makes the most sense? A realigned HSQ running essentially up Bryce’s/Wilbere Ridge? Consistent good grooming on Harper’s and Harper’s East, coupled with an upgraded lift near the current alignment? I’m not sure, but that double just turned 50, so it’s going to need replacement at some point. Not a lot of lifts from the 60s left, although there certainly are some. That will be the case for 70s lifts soon, and Snowbird would do well to make sure it’s done right when the replacement does come. Mid-Gad has more time left, but something needs to happen on that side.
MBX needed a six pack ten years ago. I don’t want to imagine what that lift line is going to look like if they keep putting it off. That will leave a 90s HSQ floating around to move to Wilbere/Mid-Gad/somewhere else if they want to, but the current lift has taken a beating from the weather, runs a long winter season, and has some summer hours. It certainly feels older than it is when you ride it.
Baldy is the most underutilized area of the mountain. There’s never a line, and it’s got some great cruising terrain. The line at MBX is probably the main deterrent to more people heading that way, since the only other way out is via Alta. Not a bad idea to try and redirect some traffic to Baldy once they address Mineral.
You’re dead on about parking. Something needs to happen, and a lot of different ski areas with similar problems are trying various things. The size of the park and ride at the bottom of LCC is not helping. I’m wondering about the practicality of expanding that, or if the 90S, BCC, and 62S park and rides will have to do.
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As long as the Lower Peruvian lift is fixed grip…
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Love everything about this take. Especially agree on MBX, particularly if they move forward with the Mary Ellen Gulch expansion. Only question is how you’d propose to “redirect some traffic to Baldy”. It’s decent cruising terrain, but for the vast majority of skiers/riders it’s also a dead end b/c only a small % of people have a ticket that allows them to access Alta. Even if you can access Alta from that side, 95% of people can’t get back to Snowbird w/o going back via Baldy pod – not like intermediates are going to cruise down the Keyhole.
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Thanks for the analysis. Yes, a lift along the old Peruvian line is essentially what I was thinking. It’s possible there’s a better alignment that could be found, but essentially would be just that still.
It’s true that getting to the peak is not very important either to the overall skiing experience.
The MBX quad does feel very beat up, but it can probably be refurbished enough to still be worthwhile installing it elsewhere. Mineral Basin should definitely become LCC’s first 6 pack (and I don’t think Alta will pull the 6er trigger unless they do it as part of the Sunnyside Chondola upgrade).
They did have a bootpack this year with COVID to get up to the ridge separating Mineral from Peruvian Gulch, so you could get to High Baldy traverse on just one lift ride and a little bit of hiking, which was nice.
I don’t typically ski lower Gad Valley, but Big Emma has too much traffic on it for sure.
With regards to the park and ride question, if the LCC gondola ever gets built they’re going to need a decently large parking structure for it, otherwise I fear that it will have less of an impact than desired.
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Well, literally the entire point of the Mary Ellen thing is so that Snowbird can have a backdoor that doesn’t require the use of LCC Road
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Somewhat lift related, but came across this cool article today.
https://www.ksl.com/article/50195485/snowbird-expects-big-drop-in-emissions-with-new-energy-system
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With plans to extend down towards Mary Ellen Gulch, and parking/traffic/avy issues on the main road… An idea starts to form in the head of anybody who looks at this… I know they super-duper promised they wouldn’t do this, but maybe they should re-examine it.
The other obvious idea is having people go through BCC if Grizzly Gulch is ever built. They should look into that too.
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https://www.tiktok.com/@camjeppski/video/6991934382663683334?sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=6909165039883847173&is_from_webapp=v1&is_copy_url=0
a bit of tram beef brewing on tiktok
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Mid gad with its original bottom terminal https://collections.lib.utah.edu/details?id=996799&page=3&q=Ski+lift&rows=200&year_start=1949
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I have no idea how it would even fit but I really think reviving the old Peruvian liftline would be really useful for providing more lappable terrain. The lift could be made by relocating Mineral basin or Gadzoom.
Click to access 1209421600.pdf
if you look at this map it really shows how narrow the runs on the upper part of Peruvian currently are
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