Bottom terminal and portal tower 1.Poma Alpha drive station.Riding up.Looking back down the line.Approaching the top.Summit bullwheel.Drive-tension station.Half towers.View up the line.Towers 18 and 19.Top terminal in the summer.
Poma / LP fixed grips haven’t changed very much in 35 years (the first Alpha came out in 1983) is a real testament to their design. All that has really changed are the sheaves, probably the grips, chairs, and lifting frames. The terminals have had some visual changes, but the same basic design is still prevalent. There were even imitations of the Alpha by other lift manufacturers big and small (pre-merger Leitner, Borvig, and VonRoll). Then there’s the fact that most Alphas are still in operation. I can’t think of one that has been scrapped (unless it was part of an Alpha-Evolution detachable, but even Snowmass found a use for some of the components from the old Fanny Hill lift).
When a 35 year old design not only lasts but is still being built 35 years later, you know you’ve found a good one.
Longevity with Leitner-Poma and with Doppelmayr differs in different departments. Doppelmayr’s EJ chair design has been around since 1985. While the Alpha terminal has been around since the 80s.
Have you even heard of the the term chairlift enthusiast? Not all chairlifts are the exact same thing. A fixed chairlift does require effort to load/unload. If you dont you will either get knocked over at the bottom by a chair and/or go around the top bullwheel. Yes riding a chairlift is not a sport (Obviously). All I am saying the drive terminal design can use some work. On a good note the lift has one heck of a light side flyover.
I dont really like poma fixed grips but that lightside flyover puts on one hell of a show. Same thing with snowflake at Breckinridge. All of that effort to make a fixed grip chairlift turn very sharp.
Sublette is probably way at the bottom of lifts to go detachable. Thunder’s more likely to go detachable first. And in neither case would there be bubbles. Bubbles aren’t exactly all that popular in the Mountain Time Zone, as I think the only two bubble lifts outside of Big Sky/Yellowstone Club are the American Flyer and Orange Bubble.
I would not say bubble chairlifts are particularly popular anywhere in the US. Between the wind problems, the scratches, and Vail refusing to build them at all of their properties (except at Okemo), there are just so few of them in the country. It is hard for me to see Jackson building a bubble either here or Thunder, and possibly anywhere on the mountain.
Why did the old EJ bubble chairs not do well in the US. There are quite a few in Europe that are still operating with their bubbles. Did the ski resorts not build indoor facilities for the bubbles?
Beyond bubbles, the US typically has a different philosophy on lifts than Europe. Ski resorts in Europe often use lifts as a way to market themselves and stand out among competitors, so doing things like adding bubbles, having heated seats, or using an eight-pack when you only need a capacity of 2400 pph makes sense. Boyne is currently the only operator in the US with this same philosophy, and it even is a new trend for them.
It’s not really marketing, the lazy tourist these days very much expect bubbles and heated seats. The only places bubbles and heated seats are missing on majors lifts are places catering to locals, which tends to ski good weather days or are power hounds (speaking as a local and powder hound who hates heated seats and is impartial to bubbles).
I built this lift in 87??? POMA lift, but all construction done by Shellabarger Construction. Looking at the pics I can remember each tower. I remember that #16 was anchored uphill to another foundation with cable?? The stories of building this line are unreal.
Just for clarification (as a fellow lift nerd, in addition to a professional), the unsupported part of the light side is called the flying return. A flyover is another word for an overpass on a freeway (or expressway, or motorway….) I’ve never heard nor used the term flyover regarding this configuration.
It seemed to be a design thing in the late 70s/early 80s. From what I’ve seen it’s used primarily in areas where the terrain makes it possible, i.e. steep enough to where the rope won’t sag too much with no towers. It also reduces the amount of sheave assemblies necessary, which lowers initial cost. I’ve also noticed when lifts with that profile are replaced, the flying return is replaced with the more traditional setup.
Thanks :) 🤔 On a hypothetical/imaginary mountain with a slope that made a perfect catenary curve and that had skiers load every chair with the same amount of weight every time 24/7, would such a chairlift need any sheaves and towers or does the rope do all the supporting and the sheaves just shape the path to something safe/reasonable? As in, can the rope hold all the weight without any help from the towers if the height of the rope didn’t matter and that’s what makes these returns possible?
Almost certainly the high speed quad replacement for Sublette coming this year will not have that light side flyover. (In fact, detachables in general rarely have light side flyovers outside of the context of “half mid-station”.)
The large downhill span lifts built by Poma and Yan were typically Bottom Drive, Bottom Tension lifts. That style of lift would have very little carriage movement from full load to empty or on a stop. All the carriage reaction (for lack of better term) was happening in that long downhill free span.
That span is moving higher with a loaded lift and up an down on a stop.
What old Poma plaques? I’ve worked on many old Pomas and haven’t seen one, aside from on our old Storm King which was 100% French. The mechanic on that lift took it home when we tore it out.
This is my favorite lift in Jackson. The only problem with it is that they close it so frequently these days when the winds get high. It seems like it is more prone to wind holds than it used to be. I wonder if JHMR could replace it with something that could better handle the wind and stay open.
It will be interesting to see this lift as a detachable, lots of wind on top as has been mentioned. Might need an enclosure for the top station similar to lift 23 at Mammoth. It will be interesting to see how the high winds are accommodated.
Lift Blog 
Poma / LP fixed grips haven’t changed very much in 35 years (the first Alpha came out in 1983) is a real testament to their design. All that has really changed are the sheaves, probably the grips, chairs, and lifting frames. The terminals have had some visual changes, but the same basic design is still prevalent. There were even imitations of the Alpha by other lift manufacturers big and small (pre-merger Leitner, Borvig, and VonRoll). Then there’s the fact that most Alphas are still in operation. I can’t think of one that has been scrapped (unless it was part of an Alpha-Evolution detachable, but even Snowmass found a use for some of the components from the old Fanny Hill lift).
When a 35 year old design not only lasts but is still being built 35 years later, you know you’ve found a good one.
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Longevity with Leitner-Poma and with Doppelmayr differs in different departments. Doppelmayr’s EJ chair design has been around since 1985. While the Alpha terminal has been around since the 80s.
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The grips haven’t changed at all, aside from adding plastic needles in place of the original one-piece steel design.
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LP fanboy over here lol
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Have you even heard of the the term chairlift enthusiast? Not all chairlifts are the exact same thing. A fixed chairlift does require effort to load/unload. If you dont you will either get knocked over at the bottom by a chair and/or go around the top bullwheel. Yes riding a chairlift is not a sport (Obviously). All I am saying the drive terminal design can use some work. On a good note the lift has one heck of a light side flyover.
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Imagine downloading this lift!
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The light side flyover would be a pretty hairraising experience.
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I dont really like poma fixed grips but that lightside flyover puts on one hell of a show. Same thing with snowflake at Breckinridge. All of that effort to make a fixed grip chairlift turn very sharp.
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It is also the same on Squaw Valleys Red Dog and Squaw Creek Lifts their light side is incredibly high up. Plus they are both Poma fixed grips.
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Same with the old supreme at alta utah and jupiter at park city. very odd sight to see, but amazing too.
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the old pali at a basin also had a cool flyover, although the curve of the terrain flowed the sag of the lift very well so it did not go very high.
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If they were to replace this lift, would it ever get bubbles?
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No.
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Sublette is probably way at the bottom of lifts to go detachable. Thunder’s more likely to go detachable first. And in neither case would there be bubbles. Bubbles aren’t exactly all that popular in the Mountain Time Zone, as I think the only two bubble lifts outside of Big Sky/Yellowstone Club are the American Flyer and Orange Bubble.
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The two new lifts at Wasatch Peaks Ranch will be added to that list
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I would not say bubble chairlifts are particularly popular anywhere in the US. Between the wind problems, the scratches, and Vail refusing to build them at all of their properties (except at Okemo), there are just so few of them in the country. It is hard for me to see Jackson building a bubble either here or Thunder, and possibly anywhere on the mountain.
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Why did the old EJ bubble chairs not do well in the US. There are quite a few in Europe that are still operating with their bubbles. Did the ski resorts not build indoor facilities for the bubbles?
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Beyond bubbles, the US typically has a different philosophy on lifts than Europe. Ski resorts in Europe often use lifts as a way to market themselves and stand out among competitors, so doing things like adding bubbles, having heated seats, or using an eight-pack when you only need a capacity of 2400 pph makes sense. Boyne is currently the only operator in the US with this same philosophy, and it even is a new trend for them.
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It’s not really marketing, the lazy tourist these days very much expect bubbles and heated seats. The only places bubbles and heated seats are missing on majors lifts are places catering to locals, which tends to ski good weather days or are power hounds (speaking as a local and powder hound who hates heated seats and is impartial to bubbles).
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I built this lift in 87??? POMA lift, but all construction done by Shellabarger Construction. Looking at the pics I can remember each tower. I remember that #16 was anchored uphill to another foundation with cable?? The stories of building this line are unreal.
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I also did all 5 lifts at A Basin back in late 70’s with Lift Engineering since someone was mentioning pali. Winterpark, snowmass, and lots of others.
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Pretty sure that this is the same lift as this extreme wind event in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MUpz3OkLTc Just imagine the swaying on the flyover.
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Yes that is correct
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I think the flyover is somewhat protected on the trees lower down.
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Can you imagine if Sublette was a bubble what the wind would do to it. The wind in that video happens fairly often.
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Just for clarification (as a fellow lift nerd, in addition to a professional), the unsupported part of the light side is called the flying return. A flyover is another word for an overpass on a freeway (or expressway, or motorway….) I’ve never heard nor used the term flyover regarding this configuration.
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What factors make a flying return an optimal choice vs not? Always wondered why some lifts have enormous ones while most don’t have one
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It seemed to be a design thing in the late 70s/early 80s. From what I’ve seen it’s used primarily in areas where the terrain makes it possible, i.e. steep enough to where the rope won’t sag too much with no towers. It also reduces the amount of sheave assemblies necessary, which lowers initial cost. I’ve also noticed when lifts with that profile are replaced, the flying return is replaced with the more traditional setup.
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Thanks :) 🤔 On a hypothetical/imaginary mountain with a slope that made a perfect catenary curve and that had skiers load every chair with the same amount of weight every time 24/7, would such a chairlift need any sheaves and towers or does the rope do all the supporting and the sheaves just shape the path to something safe/reasonable? As in, can the rope hold all the weight without any help from the towers if the height of the rope didn’t matter and that’s what makes these returns possible?
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Theoretically…but the diameter of the rope would be HUGE and the tensioning force off the charts.
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Almost certainly the high speed quad replacement for Sublette coming this year will not have that light side flyover. (In fact, detachables in general rarely have light side flyovers outside of the context of “half mid-station”.)
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The large downhill span lifts built by Poma and Yan were typically Bottom Drive, Bottom Tension lifts. That style of lift would have very little carriage movement from full load to empty or on a stop. All the carriage reaction (for lack of better term) was happening in that long downhill free span.
That span is moving higher with a loaded lift and up an down on a stop.
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Why doesn’t this lift have the old Poma plaques?
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What old Poma plaques? I’ve worked on many old Pomas and haven’t seen one, aside from on our old Storm King which was 100% French. The mechanic on that lift took it home when we tore it out.
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They might be talking about the end caps on the longitudinal beams- they don’t have the yellow “swoosh”?
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Let’s not talk about what happened in 2010
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That looks terrifying.
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Especially how strong the winds were
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This is my favorite lift in Jackson. The only problem with it is that they close it so frequently these days when the winds get high. It seems like it is more prone to wind holds than it used to be. I wonder if JHMR could replace it with something that could better handle the wind and stay open.
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Maybe a detach six? To decrease the ride time and handle the wind a bit better
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Note the paragliding person 2nd to last pic.
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Photobomb!
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It will be interesting to see this lift as a detachable, lots of wind on top as has been mentioned. Might need an enclosure for the top station similar to lift 23 at Mammoth. It will be interesting to see how the high winds are accommodated.
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