The evidence of the conversion being the style of footrests on the chairs, and the portal tower at the bottom (consistent with a Poma fixed grip quad loading area).
so i have seen a boneyard from google earth at winter park what lift could be in the I do know it is riblet ski lift but witch one would you say it is?
Apollo,Eskimo,Hughes or prospector
I’m not sure about any of the old riblets, but in the corona parking lot, I have seen the old Sunnyside lift sitting there, disassembled.
Here are the coordinates: 39.867314 105.754038
I have a question about old Eskimo the riblet double so about of people have seen it how come the top terminal is different model then the other riblet top terminals
It was a tension return terminal. Riblet were one the first chairlift manufactures to introduce hydraulic tensioning. If you look at the destructive testing video with the fire one the top terminal jolts backwards because of the cable snapping at the bottom. The top terminal could be upgraded by someone else like Yan or Poma but I dont know.
When Siberia Express (at Squaw Valley) was installed (also in 1985), the majority of the workings were made in France… The pics of Summit Express and my memories of running Siberia Express gives me the impression that the only difference is that the drive/tension systems are flip-flopped so I’m guessing they’re “sister lifts” from Poma’s Grenoble operations… A noisy, chain driven conveyor system made the first generation Pomas interesting, as well as a pain when dealing with chair spacing… One year later, the Grand Junction-built Poma detachables were much quieter…
I dunno, even the chain systems of the Grand Junction built lifts could make a lot of noise. If you look at this video I made of Copper Mountain’s original American Eagle a few years ago, the chain system is/was very noisy:
Re: Noisy Siberia Express / Poma Detach. 1985 — Siberia when running 5 m/sec tended to shake the metal external panels of the lower terminal… The construction crew may not have properly attached (isolated from vibration) those panels. The Shirley Lake Poma Detach, at Squaw, was a Grand Junction creation and it sounded almost exactly like the American Eagle (shown in the below video). Both lifts had a minimal amount of plexi-glass windows as compared to the American Eagle. Rattling metal kinda drives a lift operator bonkers.
To summarize, this master plan envisions the Zephyr Gondola as a two-stage to Lunch Rock. It also envisions Sunnyside as merely a high speed quad, not a six pack. There’s also an envisioned pod of advanced intermediate trails in Vasquez Cirque served by a fixed grip quad, with egress via Eagle Wind or the Pioneer Express (with there also being a new trail connecting the top of the Pioneer Express to the bottom of Eagle Wind). A mid-load is shown being added to the Pioneer Express around the point where the lift actually begins climbing (given the lift’s age, it’s more likely to only be added if a complete replacement of the lift is made).
In the Winter Park area, the master plan also has the Gemini Express being replaced with a gondola, and Endeavor being upgraded to a high speed quad.
Plans can change between the drafting of a master plan and the implementation of its projects. There were originally plans for Harmony 6 at Whistler to become an 8-pack, but they cut back on that. I wouldn’t be surprised if Alterra cuts the lunch rock gondola.
If they build the Lunch Rock Gondola, I think it would actually be a completely separate lift from The Gondola, kind of like Outpost at Keystone. The capacity requirement is nowhere near 3600 because there are no trails that can be lapped from it. I also don’t think it’s necessary. It would be completely redundant with the High Lonesome Express.
That beginner area plan is interesting. Looks similar to what’s planned at Steamboat. Gondola would replace the Gemini Express on a different alignment. It says D4C replacement for Endeavor, so I think that would be a relocated Gemini Express, and an additional fixed grip would be added. I wonder if Alterra is still interested in this plan, and if they’d do it before or after replacing Pioneer.
@Kaden K: I’m with Collin, a gondola from Sunspot to Lunch Rock would be redundant so long as the High Lonesome Express is there. Plus, you can avoid the catwalk by skiing down to the Olympia Express, riding up that, then skiing Hook Up to the High Lonesome Express lift.
such a gondola would probably help reduce crowding on super gauge. Would it be possible to have an extension of the current gondola, just with one for every 5 cabins going all the way to lunch rock?
I’m surprised Challenger’s not in there. It’s a pretty important lift with the parking around it and it’s pretty old. Also if it were to go HSQ it would relieve super guage, which gets a pretty big line.
I would think challenger would make an excellent candidate to be replaced with a high speed quad. It would take much of the burden off of super gauge which doesn’t have enough capacity for its trail cluster.
Outrigger only operated until 2003. It then sat standing but not operating until the end of the 2005-2006 season, when it was moved to build Eagle Wind. I know this because I skied Winter Park regularly in the 2004-2005 season and Outrigger at that time was simply standing, devoid of chairs except for three at the top that were being used for lift evac training purposes. By the 2005-2006 season, they’d removed all towers from the bottom up to Cranmer Cutoff.
Certainly it ran more before the Eskimo Express was built. Before 1999, there were always three lifts on that face. Apollo (Riblet double), Eskimo (Riblet double), and the Outrigger T-Bar were the original three. The Outrigger T-Bar was replaced with the triple chairlift in 1978. The Eskimo double was destroyed in 1990 as part of the endurance and lift failure tests. They replaced it with the Zephyr triple–which had been displaced by the Zephyr Express lift (the Zephyr Express reused the drive terminal mast from the Yan triple on its top terminal)–which I believe was outfitted with Poma Competition chairs as part of the relocation.
There were still three lifts on that face: Apollo, Eskimo and Outrigger. Outrigger probably saw the least use of the three since it didn’t service Sunspot, instead bypassing the restaurant and ending at a point on March Hare above the High Lonesome Express access trail. And because of that, I believe that after 1999, when the Eskimo Express was built to replace the Eskimo triple and Apollo double in one fell swoop, Outrigger only ever saw use during peak periods or whenever the Eskimo Express went down (which was probably rare on account of being a new lift).
I think they should build a lift from the cabriolet to the base of iron horse, and a short second stage going from the base of the cabriolet to the south of the zephyr mountain lodge, ending just before the current gondola line. I think it would allow for much more development toward Mary jane.
Thats what sober englishman is for and what high lonesome is for. They wouldn’t do that because it would too much pressure on super gauge and then they would have to run iron horse everyday.
Super Gauge would be relieved if Iron Horse was upgraded to a high speed quad, and maybe Challenger was upgraded to a fixed grip quad or a triple chairlift.
These are ideas what Winter park should do in the future or just suggestion. Btw read the things from top-bottom.
The last two where just some fun ideas I thought they were cool if they added them.
The Lunch Rock Gondola has been talked about for a few years, and I know Winter Park installed the Gondola with the ability to add a second stage, so it could happen. Iron Horse Express does not make too much sense, as a detachable backup lift is impractical and too expensive. Perhaps if Iron Horse instead ended at Sunspot it could be used to help get skiers out of Mary Jane and not be delegated to backup status. Upgrading Challenger to a triple makes more sense given its role, but perhaps the top station should be moved southeast to make it an easy way to get to Sunnyside/Panoramic. I agree with the Looking Glass upgrade as well, although I would move the bottom terminal down Wagon Train to the intersection with Tinhorn just to slightly increase its small pod. This also eliminates the need for an Olympia upgrade, as it helps get people out of Vasquez Ridge and back towards the main base. The Pioneer replacement makes sense due to its age, although maybe a detachable six-pack with increased chair spacing to maintain equal capacity but increase loading efficiency would be best (like Sunnyside). The Lonesome upgrade is similar in that I would go with a six-pack instead of another detachable quad. The Gemeni gondola has been mentioned in the past in different iterations, so it may happen, although I do not personally think it is a pressing need. I like your Vasquez chair idea as well, but I would move the base farther downhill to allow access from Eagle Wind.
I really think Challenger should go detachable before Iron Horse. Mary Jane basically has two areas where all the trails end: Utah Junction and the main Mary Jane base. Yes, you can ski down from Utah Junction to Mary Jane base, but it really does feel separated and Challenger serves this “Mary Jane East” pod. Upgrading it will greatly reduce the pressure on Super Gauge because skiers wanting a fast ride up will not ski right by Challenger to Super Gauge after arriving at Utah Junction. Iron Horse is purely a backup lift to Super Gauge, and that is not changing unless its alignment is altered (such as ending it at Sunspot like I mentioned above). Upgrading it in its current state before Challenger makes little sense.
SKITHEEAST I agree with some of your critique of BARKEESTONE’s ideas, disagree with others, but I passionately agree with BARKEESTONE and disagree with you on an Olympia upgrade. Even if the bottom terminal of Looking Glass was moved down to the intersection of Wagon Train and Tinhorn (which I think is a good idea), I think an Olympia upgrade would be a tremendous improvement to the resort. First of all, since moving Looking Glass’ bottom terminal down to the Wagon Train-Tinhorn intersection would be only a marginal improvement, an Olympia upgrade would help quite a bit.
Second and most importantly, the Olympia upgrade would be useful for much more than getting people out of Vasquez Ridge. Olympia is the primary lift for anyone in the Prospector, Looking Glass, or Olympia pods wanting to, without having to ski down to Pioneer or up the Whistlestop catwalk, ski in the Olympia pod (obviously), or ski in the High Lonesome pod or get to the Eagle Wind area on Thunderbird from High Lonesome. Olympia is also the primary lift for anyone in those three pods wanting to get to Mary Jane, Parsenn Bowl, or Vasquez Cirque without having to ski down to Pioneer or take Eskimo and then ski down Drunken Frenchman (which could be above their level) or traverse on Sober Englishman.
For these reasons, I would argue that Olympia is an extremely vital lift to the resort, probably its third or fourth most important lift after the gondola, Super Gauge, and maybe Panoramic, and I think it deserves an upgrade from its current terribly slow ride time of 9 minutes.
I doubt it. Removed on camera in 1990, not very nicely either. Maybe the tower footers are still there and possibly the terminal concrete (although that might have been removed during one or the other of the later Eskimo lift builds).
I was looking on google maps and found a outdoor “storage area”. When I zoomed into I found what looks to be like the sunnyside triple drive building and then a bullwheel. There are also other parts and a small maitnence shack. It is close to looking glass and prospector but there is a road going to it. I wonder what else they have back there.
I believe that is where they store the terrain park gear in the summer such as rails, some snow guns, and race houses. I do know they have a lift boneyard behind the Cabriolet parking lot with some haul rope, chairs, and some gondolas left over from Zephyr.
Well possible but I know that most of the terrain park gear is stored right out side of the tunnel near Cranmer. In the summer this area is called five points and there is a lot of rails stored over there.
The High Lonesome Express and Olympia Express don’t need six pack upgrades. Maybe a terminal rebuild with new terminals, chairs, and grips to allow them to run at 1,000 fpm. The Olympia Express could get extra chairs in the process.
Looking Glass is more likely to be replaced with a triple chairlift that runs in its existing alignment. A high speed quad starting at the bottom of the Pioneer Express isn’t likely to happen, especially since most people use Gun Barrel to the High Lonesome Express to leave this area.
The Gemini Express and Eskimo Express lifts are okay as is.
Mary Jane:
I could see the Challenger lift getting a high speed quad upgrade, mostly because its starting location means it would absorb a lot of traffic from the Super Gauge Express. Iron Horse probably would stay as is, as a backup for the Super Gauge Express, and so would the Pony Express.
Parsenn Bowl:
The Panoramic Express is never going to get bubbles. As seen with Okemo’s conversion into Quantum Four, a bubble conversion would likely cause more problems than it solves.
The lift over to the Cirque would be more likely to be constructed as a platter or a T-Bar than as a chairlift.
In my opinion I would upgrade Olympia to a 6-pack because it is a work horse in the winter when pioneer is closed and if Eskimo and Prospector have long lines, plus Olympia has a huge ski school population where they take up half the line. This summer it only got worse with lines all the way to the warming hut, and when only 2 bikes on every other chair it was almost a 45 minute wait. If they were to upgrade it, it would definitely have an impact in the summer as it is the back half of the mountain.
Doesn’t help that the Olympia Express lift already has much less uphill capacity than the other high speed quads around it. The Eskimo Express and Prospector Express lifts are 2,400 pph lifts, as is the Pioneer Express. But the Olympia Express only has 1,800 pph capacity.
Cabriolet: I like the idea of having a Cabriolet to Mary Jane, but I think building a new separate one adjacent to the current one makes more sense.
Cirque Express: I am all for adding a lift to better access the Cirque, but this alignment would likely have wind issues and cannot be lapped. I would rather see a fixed-grip up from Egress to somewhere on the headwall.
Eagle Wind Express: I like the idea of upgrading the lift to a detachable, but I am not in favor of extending it downhill. I do agree they should make it accessible from Pioneer, but they could do that in the existing alignment by cutting a new trail from the top of Pioneer.
Iron Horse Express: Spending a lot of money for a detachable lift only to have it be a backup is a bit wasteful. I would rather see a Pony Express/Iron Horse replacement be realigned to go to the top of Sunspot to better help get skiers at Mary Jane out to Winter Park/Vasquez Ridge.
Looking Glass Express: I think having a detachable lift here is overkill, and I also think extending it down any farther than the bottom of Tin Horn/Buckaroo is unnecessary.
Discovery: I would slightly realign it as well, extending it to the top of Endeavour/Gemini and down to the bottom of Marmot Flats.
Super Gauge Express: I know Super Gauge currently has long lines, but I do think upgrading Challenger to a detachable quad and having a new Iron Horse lift to Sunspot would reduce wait times here significantly, as those lifts are currently underutilized and skiers go right by them to Super Gauge. If those two upgrades truly are not enough, then I would agree with the upgrade.
Challenger Express & The Gondola Stage II: I agree
High Lonesome Express & Pioneer Express: I agree, although I do not think an expensive mid-station is necessary for either.
Sunnyside Express & Panoramic Express & Olympia Express & Gemini Express & Eskimo Express: I think they are fine as is and don’t need to be changed.
I updated the map, I moved Iron Horse to the Sun Spot but that would be a little bit challenging that the Gondola is already there. I realigned The Cirque Express, I also added a Mid-Station to Eagle Wind Express where the old Eagle WInd lift started. I realigned the bottom station of Discovery Express and updated it with a high-speed Quad. I turned Pony Express into a 3 Person lift.
They would never put a lift in the cirque or move eagle wind closer to pioneer. They wouldn’t put a lift in the cirque because it is only open half the season and would be a mechanical nightmare. There is already a trail from the top of pioneer to eagle wind but it isn’t on the map. If they were to upgrade eagle wind it would cause way to many beginners to go back there and ruin the slopes.
I would cut the Cirque lift and leave Eagle Wind as is.
As I said before, the Panoramic Express is not a lift that could easily be converted to a bubble lift. It wasn’t built with bubbles in mind. And Quantum Four at Okemo is proof of the problems that can come from trying to convert a non-bubble lift into a bubble lift. And in fact, the bubbles would probably make the lift more prone to wind closures. There are other six packs in Colorado that have parts that are as exposed as the Panoramic Express and don’t need bubbles, namely Super Bee and the Kensho SuperChair.
Pony Express would work as a triple chairlift, but only as a fixed grip triple.
Running Iron Horse up to Sunspot now will run into the logistical problems of the Zephyr Gondola being in the way.
The Panoramic Express doesn’t need downhill loading capacity.
Discovery works more effectively as a double chairlift.
And like skitheeast said, the Olympia Express, Gemini Express, and Eskimo Express lifts should stay as high speed quads. The High Lonesome Express at most could use a Pine Marten Express-style rebuild where the terminals and chair grips get replaced, but everything else is retained. It also doesn’t need a mid-load station, nor does the Pioneer Express lift.
What’s more likely to happen to the Sunnyside Express is that it gets a capacity upgrade in the future, assuming that the lift was designed so more chairs could be added to the lift at a later date if need be.
I was thinking of Pony being a 3 pack fixed-grip anyway. And I was also thinking that if Iron horse was moved, The Gondola would be in the way. I really don’t know what to do with the Gondola if Iron Horse was moved to Sunspot. It would have to go Over the Gondola and quickly level out or stay on the otherside of The Gondola but I don’t know how skiers would get past the Gondola. Also If They Extended the Gondola to Lunch Rock, It would block the new trail, Sober Englishmen to get to the Mary Jane Trail. So very caotic and confusing. P.S. It’s called The Gondola, not Zephyr Gondola.
Peter, you are missing the Rope Tow called Lariat, still operating, Instaled 2002 by POMA, 2 Towers, Tensioning and Drive at the Top. Ride Time 1.5 minutes and 50 ft vertical rise.
Makes sense, actually, given the adjacent learning area lifts. Endeavor, then Discovery, then Explorer. Although I don’t know what was wrong with the Eskimo Express name.
Some are still in F lot. There is also another “boneyard” next to Jack Kendrick. I went exploring in it yesterday and found the old sunny side top terminal, a lot of haul roper, 2 extra sunny side chairs, what I believe to be the old Apollo bull wheels, some chair frames with no seats and the bike holders they use in summer. Definitely interesting as there is also a building back there.
Ok. I was in winter park over Christmas but I didn’t know about the boneyards there. Definitely something to check out next time I’m there. Does anybody know if the old timberline chair bottom station is still in place because I know it was a few years ago.
Hey folks- Most ski areas don’t like it if you go poking around in their boneyards. If you really want to look at things there you would do well to contact the area first.
Generally, the boneyards I’ve seen are the ones in public view, like the remnants of Breck’s lifts, like Lift D (viewed by riding the Beaver Run SuperChair and looking to your right after crossing under the Peak 8 SuperConnect) or Lift B’s motor room vault (at the top of the Mercury SuperChair), etc.
Just to be nitpicky, the High Lonesome lift wasn’t removed– it was converted to a detach.
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The evidence of the conversion being the style of footrests on the chairs, and the portal tower at the bottom (consistent with a Poma fixed grip quad loading area).
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so i have seen a boneyard from google earth at winter park what lift could be in the I do know it is riblet ski lift but witch one would you say it is?
Apollo,Eskimo,Hughes or prospector
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Can you please tell me approximately where this is compared to some of the lifts? Thanks!
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I’m not sure about any of the old riblets, but in the corona parking lot, I have seen the old Sunnyside lift sitting there, disassembled.
Here are the coordinates: 39.867314 105.754038
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Wrong coordinates, try these ones: 39.867314, -105.754038
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Based on when you post the comment, you may be seeing the boneyard for Zephyr Express (removed 2018).
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The imagery is from last year, when the lot was being used as a staging area for the Sunnyside Express lift’s towers and terminal parts.
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Likely the old Apollo. They probably use parts off of it to keep Looking Glass going, but even that lift’s days are numbered.
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I have a question about old Eskimo the riblet double so about of people have seen it how come the top terminal is different model then the other riblet top terminals
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It was a tension return terminal. Riblet were one the first chairlift manufactures to introduce hydraulic tensioning. If you look at the destructive testing video with the fire one the top terminal jolts backwards because of the cable snapping at the bottom. The top terminal could be upgraded by someone else like Yan or Poma but I dont know.
Video: https://youtu.be/u4WPSZojtyE?t=15m16s
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Was zypher scrapped or sold
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scrapped. The chairs are now at the bus stops around town.
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high lonesome express has 141 chairs not 147
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I’m pretty sure the gondola has 77 cabins.
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Sort of. The capacity for the line is 75 but they bought two extras.
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When Siberia Express (at Squaw Valley) was installed (also in 1985), the majority of the workings were made in France… The pics of Summit Express and my memories of running Siberia Express gives me the impression that the only difference is that the drive/tension systems are flip-flopped so I’m guessing they’re “sister lifts” from Poma’s Grenoble operations… A noisy, chain driven conveyor system made the first generation Pomas interesting, as well as a pain when dealing with chair spacing… One year later, the Grand Junction-built Poma detachables were much quieter…
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I dunno, even the chain systems of the Grand Junction built lifts could make a lot of noise. If you look at this video I made of Copper Mountain’s original American Eagle a few years ago, the chain system is/was very noisy:
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Re: Noisy Siberia Express / Poma Detach. 1985 — Siberia when running 5 m/sec tended to shake the metal external panels of the lower terminal… The construction crew may not have properly attached (isolated from vibration) those panels. The Shirley Lake Poma Detach, at Squaw, was a Grand Junction creation and it sounded almost exactly like the American Eagle (shown in the below video). Both lifts had a minimal amount of plexi-glass windows as compared to the American Eagle. Rattling metal kinda drives a lift operator bonkers.
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Hey, Peter, Do you have the master plan for Winter Park? I would love to see it if you have it.
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Here’s a map of it:
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To summarize, this master plan envisions the Zephyr Gondola as a two-stage to Lunch Rock. It also envisions Sunnyside as merely a high speed quad, not a six pack. There’s also an envisioned pod of advanced intermediate trails in Vasquez Cirque served by a fixed grip quad, with egress via Eagle Wind or the Pioneer Express (with there also being a new trail connecting the top of the Pioneer Express to the bottom of Eagle Wind). A mid-load is shown being added to the Pioneer Express around the point where the lift actually begins climbing (given the lift’s age, it’s more likely to only be added if a complete replacement of the lift is made).
In the Winter Park area, the master plan also has the Gemini Express being replaced with a gondola, and Endeavor being upgraded to a high speed quad.
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Why does the now built gondola say Combi?
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Plans can change between the drafting of a master plan and the implementation of its projects. There were originally plans for Harmony 6 at Whistler to become an 8-pack, but they cut back on that. I wouldn’t be surprised if Alterra cuts the lunch rock gondola.
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why not just remove the flat part and start where the mid will be? seems like no-one would go to the end
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Not to ruin everyone’s mood or anything, but this map was updated in 2016!
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If they build the Lunch Rock Gondola, I think it would actually be a completely separate lift from The Gondola, kind of like Outpost at Keystone. The capacity requirement is nowhere near 3600 because there are no trails that can be lapped from it. I also don’t think it’s necessary. It would be completely redundant with the High Lonesome Express.
That beginner area plan is interesting. Looks similar to what’s planned at Steamboat. Gondola would replace the Gemini Express on a different alignment. It says D4C replacement for Endeavor, so I think that would be a relocated Gemini Express, and an additional fixed grip would be added. I wonder if Alterra is still interested in this plan, and if they’d do it before or after replacing Pioneer.
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The Mary Jane gondola from winter park would be good because the cat track from Sunspot to High Lonesome is really horrible and annoying.
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@Kaden K: I’m with Collin, a gondola from Sunspot to Lunch Rock would be redundant so long as the High Lonesome Express is there. Plus, you can avoid the catwalk by skiing down to the Olympia Express, riding up that, then skiing Hook Up to the High Lonesome Express lift.
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such a gondola would probably help reduce crowding on super gauge. Would it be possible to have an extension of the current gondola, just with one for every 5 cabins going all the way to lunch rock?
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I’m surprised Challenger’s not in there. It’s a pretty important lift with the parking around it and it’s pretty old. Also if it were to go HSQ it would relieve super guage, which gets a pretty big line.
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I would think challenger would make an excellent candidate to be replaced with a high speed quad. It would take much of the burden off of super gauge which doesn’t have enough capacity for its trail cluster.
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Here is the current 2020 master plan. https://skimap.org/data/503/1923/1599491860.jpg
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That does not appear to be an official map.
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Outrigger only operated until 2003. It then sat standing but not operating until the end of the 2005-2006 season, when it was moved to build Eagle Wind. I know this because I skied Winter Park regularly in the 2004-2005 season and Outrigger at that time was simply standing, devoid of chairs except for three at the top that were being used for lift evac training purposes. By the 2005-2006 season, they’d removed all towers from the bottom up to Cranmer Cutoff.
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How often did Outrigger run once the Eskimo Express was built? Can’t imagine much. It probably ran more before the express.
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Certainly it ran more before the Eskimo Express was built. Before 1999, there were always three lifts on that face. Apollo (Riblet double), Eskimo (Riblet double), and the Outrigger T-Bar were the original three. The Outrigger T-Bar was replaced with the triple chairlift in 1978. The Eskimo double was destroyed in 1990 as part of the endurance and lift failure tests. They replaced it with the Zephyr triple–which had been displaced by the Zephyr Express lift (the Zephyr Express reused the drive terminal mast from the Yan triple on its top terminal)–which I believe was outfitted with Poma Competition chairs as part of the relocation.
There were still three lifts on that face: Apollo, Eskimo and Outrigger. Outrigger probably saw the least use of the three since it didn’t service Sunspot, instead bypassing the restaurant and ending at a point on March Hare above the High Lonesome Express access trail. And because of that, I believe that after 1999, when the Eskimo Express was built to replace the Eskimo triple and Apollo double in one fell swoop, Outrigger only ever saw use during peak periods or whenever the Eskimo Express went down (which was probably rare on account of being a new lift).
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I saw the new sunnyside chairs and they have child protectors and it didn’t look like they had footrests on the bars
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Odd that they’d skip on footrests when the other two six packs have them.
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when will you go to winter park to take pictures of the new sunnyside express?
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what about a 2 way lift from the base of the gondola ish area to the super gauge area?
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I think they should build a lift from the cabriolet to the base of iron horse, and a short second stage going from the base of the cabriolet to the south of the zephyr mountain lodge, ending just before the current gondola line. I think it would allow for much more development toward Mary jane.
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Thats what sober englishman is for and what high lonesome is for. They wouldn’t do that because it would too much pressure on super gauge and then they would have to run iron horse everyday.
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Super Gauge would be relieved if Iron Horse was upgraded to a high speed quad, and maybe Challenger was upgraded to a fixed grip quad or a triple chairlift.
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And That means they would have to postpone bus service going to the base of the jane.
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I just learned this but you can ski at Winter Park for free. It says on their website that the Galloping goose lift you can ride for free.
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https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1OaAhTsYrdh_iLqyQWeNGXbN9tTP-RzQk&ll=39.86751584934714%2C-105.77761040000001&z=14
These are ideas what Winter park should do in the future or just suggestion. Btw read the things from top-bottom.
The last two where just some fun ideas I thought they were cool if they added them.
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The Lunch Rock Gondola has been talked about for a few years, and I know Winter Park installed the Gondola with the ability to add a second stage, so it could happen. Iron Horse Express does not make too much sense, as a detachable backup lift is impractical and too expensive. Perhaps if Iron Horse instead ended at Sunspot it could be used to help get skiers out of Mary Jane and not be delegated to backup status. Upgrading Challenger to a triple makes more sense given its role, but perhaps the top station should be moved southeast to make it an easy way to get to Sunnyside/Panoramic. I agree with the Looking Glass upgrade as well, although I would move the bottom terminal down Wagon Train to the intersection with Tinhorn just to slightly increase its small pod. This also eliminates the need for an Olympia upgrade, as it helps get people out of Vasquez Ridge and back towards the main base. The Pioneer replacement makes sense due to its age, although maybe a detachable six-pack with increased chair spacing to maintain equal capacity but increase loading efficiency would be best (like Sunnyside). The Lonesome upgrade is similar in that I would go with a six-pack instead of another detachable quad. The Gemeni gondola has been mentioned in the past in different iterations, so it may happen, although I do not personally think it is a pressing need. I like your Vasquez chair idea as well, but I would move the base farther downhill to allow access from Eagle Wind.
Overall, excellent ideas.
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Upgrading Iron Horse and making it a daily lift would siphon traffic off of Super Gauge for at least that portion of Mary Jane.
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I really think Challenger should go detachable before Iron Horse. Mary Jane basically has two areas where all the trails end: Utah Junction and the main Mary Jane base. Yes, you can ski down from Utah Junction to Mary Jane base, but it really does feel separated and Challenger serves this “Mary Jane East” pod. Upgrading it will greatly reduce the pressure on Super Gauge because skiers wanting a fast ride up will not ski right by Challenger to Super Gauge after arriving at Utah Junction. Iron Horse is purely a backup lift to Super Gauge, and that is not changing unless its alignment is altered (such as ending it at Sunspot like I mentioned above). Upgrading it in its current state before Challenger makes little sense.
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SKITHEEAST I agree with some of your critique of BARKEESTONE’s ideas, disagree with others, but I passionately agree with BARKEESTONE and disagree with you on an Olympia upgrade. Even if the bottom terminal of Looking Glass was moved down to the intersection of Wagon Train and Tinhorn (which I think is a good idea), I think an Olympia upgrade would be a tremendous improvement to the resort. First of all, since moving Looking Glass’ bottom terminal down to the Wagon Train-Tinhorn intersection would be only a marginal improvement, an Olympia upgrade would help quite a bit.
Second and most importantly, the Olympia upgrade would be useful for much more than getting people out of Vasquez Ridge. Olympia is the primary lift for anyone in the Prospector, Looking Glass, or Olympia pods wanting to, without having to ski down to Pioneer or up the Whistlestop catwalk, ski in the Olympia pod (obviously), or ski in the High Lonesome pod or get to the Eagle Wind area on Thunderbird from High Lonesome. Olympia is also the primary lift for anyone in those three pods wanting to get to Mary Jane, Parsenn Bowl, or Vasquez Cirque without having to ski down to Pioneer or take Eskimo and then ski down Drunken Frenchman (which could be above their level) or traverse on Sober Englishman.
For these reasons, I would argue that Olympia is an extremely vital lift to the resort, probably its third or fourth most important lift after the gondola, Super Gauge, and maybe Panoramic, and I think it deserves an upgrade from its current terribly slow ride time of 9 minutes.
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Oops just 8 minutes! Still, that’s egregiously long.
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Are there any remains of the Eskimo double?
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I doubt it. Removed on camera in 1990, not very nicely either. Maybe the tower footers are still there and possibly the terminal concrete (although that might have been removed during one or the other of the later Eskimo lift builds).
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Tower footers are still there. You can see a giant concrete slab in the summer right under eskimo then you can see footers to the right of eskimo.
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I was looking on google maps and found a outdoor “storage area”. When I zoomed into I found what looks to be like the sunnyside triple drive building and then a bullwheel. There are also other parts and a small maitnence shack. It is close to looking glass and prospector but there is a road going to it. I wonder what else they have back there.
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I believe that is where they store the terrain park gear in the summer such as rails, some snow guns, and race houses. I do know they have a lift boneyard behind the Cabriolet parking lot with some haul rope, chairs, and some gondolas left over from Zephyr.
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Well possible but I know that most of the terrain park gear is stored right out side of the tunnel near Cranmer. In the summer this area is called five points and there is a lot of rails stored over there.
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Hey Peter, there was a Mid-Unload only station for Olympia when it was a Double.
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https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1JcCC-f3ZtSCIYd9NcbPmAoZ8OZ6cAfhu&usp=sharing
Lift Map Planner
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Winter Park:
The High Lonesome Express and Olympia Express don’t need six pack upgrades. Maybe a terminal rebuild with new terminals, chairs, and grips to allow them to run at 1,000 fpm. The Olympia Express could get extra chairs in the process.
Looking Glass is more likely to be replaced with a triple chairlift that runs in its existing alignment. A high speed quad starting at the bottom of the Pioneer Express isn’t likely to happen, especially since most people use Gun Barrel to the High Lonesome Express to leave this area.
The Gemini Express and Eskimo Express lifts are okay as is.
Mary Jane:
I could see the Challenger lift getting a high speed quad upgrade, mostly because its starting location means it would absorb a lot of traffic from the Super Gauge Express. Iron Horse probably would stay as is, as a backup for the Super Gauge Express, and so would the Pony Express.
Parsenn Bowl:
The Panoramic Express is never going to get bubbles. As seen with Okemo’s conversion into Quantum Four, a bubble conversion would likely cause more problems than it solves.
The lift over to the Cirque would be more likely to be constructed as a platter or a T-Bar than as a chairlift.
Vasquez Cirque:
Eagle Wind is fine as is.
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This are just Ideas, just things that would help get more people on the trails than on the lifts and waiting in lines.
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Also, give me feedback on ALL of the lifts that I have updated and if there is anything else that I need to upgrade.
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Donald Reif would your ideas for High Lonesome and Olympia increase their speeds? I think they both desperately need to be faster, especially Olympia.
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In my opinion I would upgrade Olympia to a 6-pack because it is a work horse in the winter when pioneer is closed and if Eskimo and Prospector have long lines, plus Olympia has a huge ski school population where they take up half the line. This summer it only got worse with lines all the way to the warming hut, and when only 2 bikes on every other chair it was almost a 45 minute wait. If they were to upgrade it, it would definitely have an impact in the summer as it is the back half of the mountain.
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Doesn’t help that the Olympia Express lift already has much less uphill capacity than the other high speed quads around it. The Eskimo Express and Prospector Express lifts are 2,400 pph lifts, as is the Pioneer Express. But the Olympia Express only has 1,800 pph capacity.
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Cabriolet: I like the idea of having a Cabriolet to Mary Jane, but I think building a new separate one adjacent to the current one makes more sense.
Cirque Express: I am all for adding a lift to better access the Cirque, but this alignment would likely have wind issues and cannot be lapped. I would rather see a fixed-grip up from Egress to somewhere on the headwall.
Eagle Wind Express: I like the idea of upgrading the lift to a detachable, but I am not in favor of extending it downhill. I do agree they should make it accessible from Pioneer, but they could do that in the existing alignment by cutting a new trail from the top of Pioneer.
Iron Horse Express: Spending a lot of money for a detachable lift only to have it be a backup is a bit wasteful. I would rather see a Pony Express/Iron Horse replacement be realigned to go to the top of Sunspot to better help get skiers at Mary Jane out to Winter Park/Vasquez Ridge.
Looking Glass Express: I think having a detachable lift here is overkill, and I also think extending it down any farther than the bottom of Tin Horn/Buckaroo is unnecessary.
Discovery: I would slightly realign it as well, extending it to the top of Endeavour/Gemini and down to the bottom of Marmot Flats.
Super Gauge Express: I know Super Gauge currently has long lines, but I do think upgrading Challenger to a detachable quad and having a new Iron Horse lift to Sunspot would reduce wait times here significantly, as those lifts are currently underutilized and skiers go right by them to Super Gauge. If those two upgrades truly are not enough, then I would agree with the upgrade.
Challenger Express & The Gondola Stage II: I agree
High Lonesome Express & Pioneer Express: I agree, although I do not think an expensive mid-station is necessary for either.
Sunnyside Express & Panoramic Express & Olympia Express & Gemini Express & Eskimo Express: I think they are fine as is and don’t need to be changed.
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I updated the map, go check it out.
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I updated the map, I moved Iron Horse to the Sun Spot but that would be a little bit challenging that the Gondola is already there. I realigned The Cirque Express, I also added a Mid-Station to Eagle Wind Express where the old Eagle WInd lift started. I realigned the bottom station of Discovery Express and updated it with a high-speed Quad. I turned Pony Express into a 3 Person lift.
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They would never put a lift in the cirque or move eagle wind closer to pioneer. They wouldn’t put a lift in the cirque because it is only open half the season and would be a mechanical nightmare. There is already a trail from the top of pioneer to eagle wind but it isn’t on the map. If they were to upgrade eagle wind it would cause way to many beginners to go back there and ruin the slopes.
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I would cut the Cirque lift and leave Eagle Wind as is.
As I said before, the Panoramic Express is not a lift that could easily be converted to a bubble lift. It wasn’t built with bubbles in mind. And Quantum Four at Okemo is proof of the problems that can come from trying to convert a non-bubble lift into a bubble lift. And in fact, the bubbles would probably make the lift more prone to wind closures. There are other six packs in Colorado that have parts that are as exposed as the Panoramic Express and don’t need bubbles, namely Super Bee and the Kensho SuperChair.
Pony Express would work as a triple chairlift, but only as a fixed grip triple.
Running Iron Horse up to Sunspot now will run into the logistical problems of the Zephyr Gondola being in the way.
The Panoramic Express doesn’t need downhill loading capacity.
Discovery works more effectively as a double chairlift.
And like skitheeast said, the Olympia Express, Gemini Express, and Eskimo Express lifts should stay as high speed quads. The High Lonesome Express at most could use a Pine Marten Express-style rebuild where the terminals and chair grips get replaced, but everything else is retained. It also doesn’t need a mid-load station, nor does the Pioneer Express lift.
What’s more likely to happen to the Sunnyside Express is that it gets a capacity upgrade in the future, assuming that the lift was designed so more chairs could be added to the lift at a later date if need be.
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I was thinking of Pony being a 3 pack fixed-grip anyway. And I was also thinking that if Iron horse was moved, The Gondola would be in the way. I really don’t know what to do with the Gondola if Iron Horse was moved to Sunspot. It would have to go Over the Gondola and quickly level out or stay on the otherside of The Gondola but I don’t know how skiers would get past the Gondola. Also If They Extended the Gondola to Lunch Rock, It would block the new trail, Sober Englishmen to get to the Mary Jane Trail. So very caotic and confusing. P.S. It’s called The Gondola, not Zephyr Gondola.
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Hey Peter, Eskimo Double as a Riblet had the Drive at the bottom terminal.
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Also, Outrigger Triple had the Drive at the Top Terminal.
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Peter, you are missing the Rope Tow called Lariat, still operating, Instaled 2002 by POMA, 2 Towers, Tensioning and Drive at the Top. Ride Time 1.5 minutes and 50 ft vertical rise.
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Ya know, one post probably would of been enough. ;)
Also if you browse around the site enough you know rope tows and surface conveyors are not listed.
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Discovery has 6 towers
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Eskimo Express has been renamed Explorer Express for 2020
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Makes sense, actually, given the adjacent learning area lifts. Endeavor, then Discovery, then Explorer. Although I don’t know what was wrong with the Eskimo Express name.
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Guessing it has to do with Alterra’s review of indigenous names.
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Like Brody said above, Discovery has 6 towers, a 1,200 PPH Capacity, 1148 feet length, 400 FPM speed.
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Here is the chart of the missing specs of the operating lifts.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FcZ8Cel22x09oAaSKpfMRI1xOfzDBdo_/view?usp=sharing
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Trust the experts here
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I can’t figure out why you use so many different identities. Billy, Brody, Lift Expert and Lift Mapper appear to be the same account.
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correction, Eagle Wind is 5374 ft long, sorry it took me so long to realise.
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does anyone know what happened to the old gondolas from the zephyr chairlift. I know there were a few they used for scenic rides at night.
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Last I heard they’re sitting in WP’s boneyard.
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oh ok cause I know they sold the chairs to the city – where is the boneyard at?
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Last I heard they were sitting in parking lot F, but they may have been moved since then.
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Some are still in F lot. There is also another “boneyard” next to Jack Kendrick. I went exploring in it yesterday and found the old sunny side top terminal, a lot of haul roper, 2 extra sunny side chairs, what I believe to be the old Apollo bull wheels, some chair frames with no seats and the bike holders they use in summer. Definitely interesting as there is also a building back there.
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Ok. I was in winter park over Christmas but I didn’t know about the boneyards there. Definitely something to check out next time I’m there. Does anybody know if the old timberline chair bottom station is still in place because I know it was a few years ago.
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I have the coordinates to it, if anyone goes over there, can you please take some pictures? 39°53’22.0″N 105°46’56.0″W
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That’s what I was talking about. I went over there and got multiple pictures of which I stated above
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Can you post the photos?
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I don’t know how to on this site but I can send them to you on Instagram if you have one
My Instagram is aidanreilly17
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How about mailing them to me?
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Yeah I can do that. What is your email?
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bobbynelson353@gmail.com
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Hey folks- Most ski areas don’t like it if you go poking around in their boneyards. If you really want to look at things there you would do well to contact the area first.
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Generally, the boneyards I’ve seen are the ones in public view, like the remnants of Breck’s lifts, like Lift D (viewed by riding the Beaver Run SuperChair and looking to your right after crossing under the Peak 8 SuperConnect) or Lift B’s motor room vault (at the top of the Mercury SuperChair), etc.
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@Hawkeye It was removed a few years ago.
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