Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Okemo will all add new lifts next year in a mix of expansions and replacements. Parent company Vail Resorts made the project announcements alongside a quarterly earnings report this afternoon. “We remain committed to reinvesting in our resorts, creating an experience of a lifetime for our guests and generating strong returns for our shareholders,” said Vail Chairman and CEO Rob Katz.
At Beaver Creek, a new detachable quad will service the high alpine McCoy Park learning zone. “This new lift accessed beginner and intermediate bowl experience is a rare opportunity to expand with highly accessible terrain in one of the most idyllic settings in Colorado and will further differentiate the high-end, family focused experience at Beaver Creek,” said the company. A second quad chair will provide egress to the top of the Strawberry and Upper Beaver Creek Mountain Express lifts.
At Keystone, the Peru Express will be replaced by a six pack subject to government approval. The new machine will increase out-of-base capacity and improve overall circulation. Also in Summit County, a new detachable quad on Breckenridge’s Peak 7 will enhance uphill capacity near the Independence SuperChair. “This additional lift will further enhance the guest experience at the most visited resort in the U.S. and will significantly increase guest access and circulation for the intermediate terrain on Peaks 6 and 7,” said Vail.
Okemo Mountain Resort will complete two transformational projects. Quantum Four will be swapped for a detachable six place lift in the heart of Jackson Gore. The existing equipment, originally installed in 2002 and upgraded with bubble chairs in 2015, will move to replace the Green Ridge triple. Green Ridge is currently the only non-Poma lift at Okemo.
Overall capital spending is expected to reach $210 to $215 million in 2020, including an upgraded restaurant at Whistler Blackcomb and new EpicMix mobile app. The full capital plan will be released in March of 2020.
The latest projects come at the end of a relatively quiet year for lift construction across Vail Resorts with two Doppelmayr and two Skytrac lifts debuting between Crested Butte, Park City and Stevens Pass. Vail focused on other projects for 2019 including massive snowmaking upgrades in Colorado and the integration of Triple Peaks.
As for the financial results, season pass sales through December 2nd were up 17 percent in dollars and 22 percent in units versus the prior year. The company lost $106.5 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2020 compared with $107.8 million a year ago (ski resorts generally lose money this time of year.) Vail expects a resort reported EBITDA of $778 to $818 million for full fiscal year 2020.
Manufacturers for the four new lifts were not specified. Those at Okemo and Breckenridge are likely to be built by Leitner-Poma while Beaver Creek is currently an all-Doppelmayr mountain. Keystone has bought lifts from both manufacturers in recent years.
Lift Blog 
I wonder if the new Jackson Gore lift will have bubbles and if the new Green Ridge will retain Quantum Four’s bubbles. Vail hasn’t hopped on the bubble bandwagon yet. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
I would also bet that the new Jackson Gore would be built by L-P, but Vail hasn’t shown a lick of loyalty in terms of lift manufacturers in the last decade, so who knows.
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Each resort has its own individual loyalties to lift manufacturers. Breckenridge has been Leitner-Poma loyal since 1985, 11 years before Vail Resorts bought them. Beaver Creek’s lifts with the exception of Highlands are from Doppelmayr or companies that have merged with Doppelmayr, and even Highlands has Doppelmayr parts. Vail has jumped back and forth between Doppelmayr and Leitner-Poma during the 2010s, going with Leitner-Poma for the High Noon Express and Gondola One, then to Doppelmayr for the Mountaintop Express, Avanti Express and Gopher Hill, and back to Leitner-Poma for the Sun Up Express and the Northwoods Express.
Keystone was with Doppelmayr for their high speed quads, plus Ranger and Wayback, during the 1990s, then went with Leitner-Poma for the Ruby Express lift in 2000, with Doppelmayr for the River Run Gondola, then back to Leitner-Poma for the Montezuma Express.
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I asked Okemo and they said the plan is for both Green Ridge Express and Quantum Six to have bubbles.
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Okemo is known for their bubble chairs, and I’m sure if Vail took one away at this, still early stage of their ownership, it wouldn’t go over well from a PR perspective….
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Same reason they’ll likely never remove Orange Bubble’s bubbles in PCMR.
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according to a recent instagram post the new 6 pack will not have bubbles. the relocated quantum 4 will retain its bubble chairs
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Okemo’s team wanted the lift to have bubbles. Vail’s team did not. You can guess who won the argument…
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One would think that Vail would be used to bubbles by now after owning Okemo, Mt. Snow and Canyons. All of those areas have bubble lifts in really good shape.
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This lift should of had bubbles especially since the last two additions to Okemo were
bubbled. It’s a shame but Okemo is already the only mountain on the east coast with more than one bubbled lift.
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They should buy new grips and terminals for the Green Ridge Express, to ensure it can run at 1,000 fpm.
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Do they need new line gear too? I think new LPA terminals and grips would be a good choice.
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Well, Quantum Four was a conversion of Jackson Gore, and like Collin and Max have noted, the bubble conversion really killed capacity on that hill as the lift was never built with heavy bubble chairs in mind.
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I don’t think that’s necessary. Green Ridge never ever has enough traffic to fill the lift’s capacity, and the lift is only 4100ish feet long, so if it doesn’t run the full 1000 I don’t think anyone will overly complain. Also they will probably be able to use all of the chairs on the new lift despite it being shorter because they will be able to set the towers closer together. I hope they do away with the contour load as well.
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Max, If Green ridge is to keep the bubbles, it needs to keep the contour loading layout. The terminal is not long enough with the bubble lowering mechanism installed.
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The Green Ridge Triple relay needed this. The lift is relay cold, so bubbles will be good to have.
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The Keystone move is slightly unexpected but somewhat understandable. Upgrading Peru was not in their master plan and makes me think the Argentine upgrade is now off the table. I figured upgrading Outback capacity and moving the HSQ to wayback was the top priority but getting guests on the hill at the start of day is critical. Kind of disappointing as a Keystone skier because the lift is rarely used more than once a day by a large percentage of the skiers. Perhaps this is setting up for more real estate activity at Mountain House base.
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Yeah, Mountain House doesn’t get the sort of traffic that River Run does, and yes, the Peru Express lift’s traffic primarily hits the lift in the morning when heading up the mountain, since there’s not much in the way of runs that the lift has for lapping, compared to the Summit Express and Montezuma Express lifts.
I would be impressed if Keystone does decide to go for upgrading Wayback using Peru Express parts in a Shedhorn 4 type way.
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I am really happy they are replacing Peru and it’s a much needed upgrade. While I would prefer a Wayback replacement, this upgrade makes more sense because Peru has much more moving parts than Wayback and I bet it is becoming a maintenance nightmare. I really hope the new lift is a Doppelmayr. Right now, my best hope is that Vail is working with Doppelmayr on doing the “shedhorn upgrade” with the current Peru Express and moving it to replace Wayback. If they can’t do it or decide not to do it, then I bet we will have to wait on the Wayslow lift for another season. Let’s hope for a later announcement with a Game Creek upgrade, some new lifts at Whistler and maybe a Wayback replacement.
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Keystone has had a Wayback upgrade on the Master plans for years.
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If they upgrade Wayback, they could use Wayback’s parts to create a new lift servicing one of the bowls above North Peak.
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I think the main driver is how incredibly long the line for the gondola is, many mornings. Keystone will have to work on base area circulation to get people used to the idea of loading Peru first thing in the morning, though. Better bus frequency from the remote parking lot would help.
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I think what drives people away from Mountain House is the fact that the Peru Express doesn’t have much lappable terrain of its own, plus it doesn’t go direct to the Summit House.
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Bit of a late answer, but if you check their master plan they want to obliterate all of the mountain house base area and turn it into a river run-type area. The buildings down there are mostly original and showing their age, plus there aren’t a lot of places to stay where you can walk to the lift. I remember in the 90’s the MH was already rather crowded, so to me it would make sense.
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I think this is a good idea for Okemo. Jackson Gore gets long lines mainly due to its low speed, so it could use replacement. The Green Ridge replacement will be great because it will attract more people over to that part of the mountain, therefore taking some pressure off the Sunburst Six. Green Ridge is a long, cold ride and gets annoying sometimes, though it still is a cool lift, unique for Okemo as the only non-Poma.
One thing I hope they do is extend the new lift down to Mountain Road. This will take a lot of pressure off of Lower Arrow and Lower Mountain Road And prevent skiers from the upper mountain from skiing all the way down to the Sunburst Six. That area gets INSANE traffic on busy days. It will provide people from Jackson Gore and Solitude with a convenient way to reach the summit without skiing down through the traffic jam. You can avoid some of it by taking Switchback, but you still have to put up with Lower Mountain Road down to the lift.
Something I think would be a great idea for Green Ridge is to use it to make that new beginner lift at Jackson Gore that has been planned for several years now. That area doesn’t get that much traffic, so I think it would have enough capacity. This is a similar case to the Little Eagle Triple At Vail. Another use could be the second lift in the South Face Village once that happens. Who knows. It definitely still has some life in it with some TLC. I really hope they re-use it somewhere. It has a cool motor sound too you only hear on Doppelmayr lifts.
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Yes Green Ridge should go to mountain road.
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The green ridge replacement has been being thrown around for a while. Before all the bubbles had gone in Bruce Schmidt had mentioned green ridge may be upgraded and extended to mountain road. A JG six pack seems like not the greatest move, the trails where at capacity before the bubble conversion and any lift on that lift line shouldn’t exceed 2600 pph.
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The Jackson Gore Express used to have 2600/hr capacity before they torpedoed it with the bubble conversion. It turned out to be a disaster, and it shows by the fact that the whole thing is getting replaced 5 years later.
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What will be interesting is whether Quantum Six has bubbles or not.
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Was capacity dropped to accommodate the extra weight of the bubbles?
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I think it was dropped from 2600 to 2400, but the lift runs far slower than it did without bubbles. Instead of 1000-1050, it’s now running at about 800 fpm.
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Capacity was killed by the bubble chairs. The LPA-4-CC chairs are obviously heavier than the Omega quad chairs they replaced, and the towers were set for the weight of the Omegas, so they simply couldn’t put as many bubble chairs on the line. Then there’s the fact that the bubble chairs can’t go through the contour at the design terminal speed (234 fpm or something like that) because they are too heavy and inertia tends to take over. The contour wasn’t designed for that kind of load to be going around the corners. That’s a drop in number or carriers and a decrease in max operating speed, resulting in a dramatic drop in capacity. It was 2600 riders/hr in 2002, and I think is was something like 1500 riders/hr (that’s off of memory so don’t quote me on that) in 2015 when the bubble chairs were added.
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Surprised they’re not upgrading Game Creek.
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I also expected one of the three remaining 1985 Vail detachables to make the list. I was hoping to see a Whistler Blackcomb replacement too. But the five announced projects are all excellent moves. Just goes to show this industry never can be predicted.
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Some sad faces in whistler watching paint dry here on the just refurbished restaurant they are going to redo again…, but watching paint dry is still faster than riding the Franzs chair that is currently running (er I mean crawling) as the limited snowpack forced them to open it whilst waiting for the alpine…. This key lift should be replaced ASAP, as should Jersey Cream
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What are they doing at whistler. It’s on the tweet. Because Doppelmayr just removed horseman t-bar as the glacier is shrinking too fast. Which means 7 th heaven will get super packed and it’s old any ways.
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When did that happen?
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Logan I can still see the hotstman Tbar on the Webcam. I know they don’t run it anymore, and they had to move the Showcase a few years ago.
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They did run it late last year. There are videos of it running
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Horstman only ran for summer camps last year.
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Vail’s master plan said that game creek was the only lift to be upgraded to a six person. I am not surprised that nothing is getting upgraded this summer. The rest of the projects on the plan were quads and I bet they could build two quads at a time at vail.
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I’m surprised that neither Vail nor Whistler are getting anything. Maybe we’ll hear something come March 2020.
On a different note, what do we think will become of the old Peru? Are they going to use it for the Peak 7 infill? Could they use it for a Wayback replacement? Or is the gear too old for Vail to be willing to salvage?
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It’s unlikely that Breckenridge would buy a used Doppelmayr lift for their Peak 7 infill lift. Breckenridge has only ever bought lifts from Poma and Leitner-Poma since 1985. Their only Doppelmayr lift is the T-Bar.
I do think that it definitely would be more likely Keystone use the Peru Express parts to upgrade Wayback if they indeed salvage the parts. Since Big Sky’s use of the Ramcharger quad to upgrade Shedhorn shows the longevity of these machines.
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Maybe Vail could do something like what Boyne did at Big Sky with Shedhorn. Relocating Peru to replace way back and getting a new terminal skin, sheave trains, some new towers, and some new controls if needed.
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More than likely, Vail will recycle parts of Peru to become the new McCoy Park Express. Just like how Montezuma became the Red Buffalo Express at Beaver Creek.
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I’m surprised that Stowe continues to get nothing. Toll Road and Lookout would both benefit with upgraded lifts. Maybe they want to drive more traffic to Okemo over Stowe….? Also nothing for Sunapee – there was the plan (of Triple Peaks) to move the North Peak Triple to the Cataract Glade to provide a way out of the Sunbowl without going to summit. The North Peak would then be replaced with a quad that is sitting in storage at the base of the Sunbowl. Perhaps that isn’t significant enough to be included in this press cycle, but might be announced later? However, I’m betting it doesn’t happen at all….
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I’m more surprised that Mt. Snow is getting nothing. They’ve had challenger break down 3+ times so far this season and from what I’ve seen, people really aren’t happy about it.
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I thought a Challenger/Outpost replacement was not a want, but more of a need, just based on the operational nightmare that lift has been. Same with the Summit Triple, as their maintenance was not a long term solution. However, Vail does typically announce a lift or two in March/April and I would not be surprised if these replacements are greenlit in that timeframe once they see how the lifts run over the full course of the season.
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The Challenger problems have only come up in the last couple weeks, so I bet Vail is only right now starting to prioritize a replacement there instead of maybe the Sunbrook that Peak had in the works.
No Attitash Summit replacement is bit surprising. That is the biggest no brainer lift replacement in New England that year after year still has not happened.
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Why isn’t Outpost ever run? While the same year drive terminal, everything else on the lift is newer than Challenger. Anyone skiing in that pod has the capability of getting from Outpost back to the top of Bluebird.
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Bobby, saying Outpost never runs is anything but true. Outpost runs quite a bit. Even though they seem to prefer Challenger more, go there pretty much any weekend during the peak season and they’re both running. Outpost is also more wind protected, so it runs whenever Challenger goes on wind hold (which is pretty common). Also, the top of Challenger is closer to the Bluebird. It ends right behind the summit lodge. You can still get to there from Outpost, but it requires some poling/uphill because it’s further away. That is probably a reason they prefer Challenger.
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XLR8R, the Summit Triple goes through forest service land which would be difficult to permit for a detachable. That’s why they are reluctant to replace it. If it wasn’t that way, it would without a doubt be detachable by now.
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The Forest Service routinely approves lift replacements with just a few months’ notice. Summit hasn’t been replaced because ASC/Peak haven’t wanted to replace it.
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Too bad. They blew a great opportunity. Vail isn’t gonna like that lift. Peak should’ve just replaced it rather than spend all the money to repair a lift that needs replacement soon.
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ASC’s plan was to replace the Summit Triple with a HSQ in a new alignment that went further up the mountain. This would include cutting new trails that went down into the canyon between Attitash and Bear Peaks. This would have required extensive Forest Service approvals, hence they built Flying Yankee in the short term and the Summit replacement never happened before ASC ran out of money. The easy thing for Vail to build now is a low capacity HSQ in same alignment with very large chair spacing to keep the three summit trails from being overcrowded.
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Outpost only runs when Challenger gets too busy. And yet there were 10 minute lines last Sunday the 8th and they nickel and dimed us refusing to operate Outpost despite that Challenger broke down the 7th and was still breaking down multiple times on the 8th WITH a mechanic on the tower.
Point I’m making is that Challenger never never runs by itself under Vail or Peaks.
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Vail always does a “break in” year with resorts they buy. Vail is not going to choose to replace a lift after only a month of running it. Maybe after this season at the earliest.
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I don’t think there is going to be a rush to replace the Lookout any time soon. It’s very much a secondary lift to the Fourrunner. It serves its purpose of cutting down lines on busy days, and it only really runs maybe 20 days a season.
The Toll House lift does need an upgrade, that ride is brutally long. However, I think that upgrade will come as part of a much larger upgrade of the entire TH base area. That area is woefully underutilized because that lift leaves it so far away. That base area is old and needs major updating, and that little pod of green trails would be an ideal learning zone.
I’d predict Vail will demo the old Toll House conference center, and build a relatively small, but full service lodge down there. They’ll put in a lift to serve just that pod (maybe repurpose the current lift), and a HSQ in place of the current TH double.
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Agree with this re: Toll House (and Lookout, FWIW – Mtn Triple more likely to be replaced of the two). That would kill a few birds with one stone but will take time to properly plan. Kind of shocked there is nothing here for any Eastern or Tahoe resorts. Have to imagine we’ll see more revealed than usual in that March/April window, assuming it’s not a complete weather disaster.
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As for moving and replacing the sunapee north peak, that’s a pretty heavy duty project for something that wouldn’t benifit a ton of skiers. Since the second high speed lift was added the need for a cataract chair is reduced. Now you can get to the summit so quick that it’s less likely you’d choose a slow ride servicing limited terrain. You’d need lift ops, and while there is enough space to add a loading area it would move the run-out of cataract glades.
Meanwhile you’d have to replace the triple chair in it’s entirety with the old quad which runs not much faster if at all. Nor does adding a high speed lift at north peak make much sense, though would be very nice.
Instead Sunapee will cut terrain to the west and expand the mountain down into Goshen.
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On busy days the North Peak relieves the load on the Summit HSQ. But that is a bottle neck as well. I’ve been there on days when all the lifts are so packed, I spent peak time riding the Duckling Double (now gone) instead. The other option is to upgrade the Summit HSQ to a six pack. But I still think at least upgrading the North Peak to a quad would be an improvement – and they have the lift components already.
I don’t think that the Goshen expansion will happen, now that Vail has so many other resort options for their guests in the region. If Sunapee isn’t big enough, guests can go to Okemo or Mount Snow….
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you can get to the summit quick from the bottom of sunbowl only after you wait in the 30-40 minute line at the bottom of the Sunbowl Express. A Cataract chair is needed for egress at peak times.
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Not to complain, but I’m surprised that they’ve done nothing at Afton, I waited in line for at least half a hour to get on a Hall double for at least 3 different lifts last year.
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I am quite disappointed by how little Vail seems to have invested in Afton. Last time I was there, the snow was OK, skier traffic seemed decent, but the assortment of lifts running was poor. When it was family run, the focus was on skiing the whole area. Now it feels like the focus is on selling season passes to get people out to the big name resorts.
And why they haven’t upgraded the web sites for Afton, Wilmot, etc is just strange. How hard can it be to apply what is pretty clearly a template that Breck, Keystone etc use?
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Does the $$$ announced for CapEx remotely add up ? . 150/210-220 depending on which of the line items you read don’t seem to add up to the plans announced. Perhaps some more resorts on Rob Katz Christmas shopping list??
Beaver Creek – terrain and lift – $10-15M , Keystone/Breck new lifts $20M, Okemo lifts $10-15M, Whistler restaurant $5M. Ok so thats like $50M allocated, Lets Assume they spend the Same $10 it looks like they spent on EpicMix App, ok ok, lets say $1M for a App2.0 , there still appears to be a $100M gap in the big ticket items….
So the question is, with SilverStar just bought by Powdr, and Alterra having a lock on the non VR Aussie resorts and “partnered” with lots of PNW/BC … who is up for sale in a market that VR might want?
I can’t see Nippon Cable selling Sun Peaks (they won’t even sell the 25% of WhistlerBlackcomb they still own).
RCR (Nakiska, Fernie, Kicking Horse, Mont StAnne, Stoneam, Kimberly) seems like a good complementary partner to buy out?
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Guessing a lot of less sexy projects also count as Capex. Point of sale systems, new toilets, new snow cats, etc.
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Hoping to get a new EAM system (software). Will be big bucks and not a guest facing upgrade.
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I hope the Franz’s and Jersey Cream come soon as well. I also think Whistler may need more snowmaking so they can open more than a few runs early season. They are charging over 150 dollars Canadian and no discounts for 1 day. I mean, seriously?
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It’s To Bad That NOBODY Can Compete Against Big Sky Top Lift ” RAMCHARGER 8″ The Most Hi Technological Advanced Chairlift Ever Built. Funny No Other Resort Is Buying A 8 Pack Just 6’s. So I Guess That Just Goes To Show you That Big Sky Is Truly King Of The Mountain. So Until Someone Comes Up With A 10 Pack Chair BIG SKY’S RAMCHARGER Remains On Top.
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Are you a paid shill for Big Sky? Because no one cares, and most resorts generally build their lifts with the goal of moving people around, not caring about going all out.
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Oh please, this again?
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Can you not post this on every single social media platform there is? We get that you’re proud that Boyne invested in a D-Line 8 pack, but you don’t have to be shouty and obnoxious about it. Ramcharger is not actually on the top, there are plenty of more technologically advanced lifts throughout the world, and sorry to break it to you, Ramcharger simply isn’t the best lift out there. Many resorts don’t need so much capacity and a six-pack will do. If I see this comment from you one more time, I’m not going to be happy. How about not bragging about Ramcharger for once and talk about something else.
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Jeez, stop this please. Why do you expect every mountain to get an 8 pack to compete with Ramcharger? Not all mountains have the money to buy them. Some mountains are lucky just to have detachable quads. Only major companies can afford stuff like this, and besides an 8 pack would probably be kinda overkill for these locations anyway. Just saying.
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I’m going to echo other’s points about this. I’d also like to add that loading Ramcharger is currently a huge hassle. They aren’t counting out 8s efficiently and at least every other load, there’s a last minute change, causing chairs to go up with only 2-3 people, even if there’s a line. It’s not running any more efficiently than the old quad.
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Not Funny. Didn’t Laugh
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Guys, I’m pretty sure that he’s making fun of the Big Sky marketing, not supporting it.
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I don’t think so, seeing as he goes to the threads of photo pages or videos of non-Big Sky lifts.
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And how much is Big Sky paying you to pull this imflammatory shit out of your ass and throw it at us on every social media platform in existance?
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HAHAH ever been to Euro??? Ram charger is nothing compared to whats on the ther side of the Atlantic.
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You see, there are so many amazing lifts out there, Ramcharger is just one of them. You could argue that the longest bubble chair in the world at copper mountain is just as good as Ramcharger. Orange Bubble Express was the first bubble and heated seat lift in North America and that was also just like Ramcharger. And also learn some grammar.
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Hell, Breck is a museum for unique lifts, with the highest chairlift in North Anerica (Imperial Express SuperChair), highest high speed six pack in North America (Kensho SuperChair), and four lifts with turns (BreckConnect, Peak 8 SuperConnect, Lift 5 and the T-Bar). Many of them are more impressive than any Big Sky lifts.
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Least intelligent person on this forum… just because your mountain has an 8-pack doesn’t mean it’s the ‘king of the mountains’.
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The Peak 7 infill lift is something that’s kinda overdue for Breck, and it will absolutely serve a lot of uses:
1. It will allow for skier traffic to lap Monte Cristo, Angels Rest, Lincoln Meadows and Wirepatch without having to go down the runout back to the Independence SuperChair after each run.
2. It will allow most of Peak 7’s runs to still be lappable if the Independence SuperChair goes down for whatever reason.
3. Much like the Peak 6 Parkway allows people to access the Zendo Chair directly from the Rocky Mountain SuperChair while bypassing the Peak 7 base area, it will serve the purpose of allowing Peak 6 traffic to bypass Peak 7 base area when returning to Peak 8 and points south after doing laps on the Kensho SuperChair.
Since Breckenridge has bought from Leitner-Poma since 1985, I don’t see any reason to suspect they’d go with a different manufacturer. This will be their first new high speed quad since the Imperial Express SuperChair in 2005. Seeing as Breck has gone with the LPA chairs for their three LPA six packs (the Kensho SuperChair, Colorado SuperChair and Falcon SuperChair), I get the feeling they’ll also use the LPA quad chair for this lift, making it the sole high speed quad on the mountain to not use Omega chairs.
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Will this lift put more traffic on Kensho and Zendo?
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No, it won’t. What the lift will be doing is reducing crowds at the Independence SuperChair. It’ll result in Peak 7 having a setup similar to what Breck already has with the high speed quads on Peak 9. On Peak 9, the Beaver Run SuperChair provides access out of the Peak 9 base area and also laps the majority of the Upper Peak 9 trails, but not quite all of them. The ones not accessible from the Beaver Run SuperChair are accessible from the Mercury SuperChair, which ends slightly higher and is the main lift for doing laps on upper Peak 9.
On Peak 7, it’s going to be something similar. Currently, the Independence SuperChair services all of Peak 7’s trails and is also used by traffic starting at the Peak 7 base area plus cross-traffic transiting south after finishing up on Peak 6. Beginning next year, the infill high speed quad will be the lift you use for doing laps on Wirepatch, Lincoln Meadows, Angel’s Rest and Monte Cristo; for accessing the Pioneer Crossing restaurant more directly from Peak 6; and for providing a transit route to Peak 8 from Peak 6 that avoids the crowds at the Peak 7 base area. It will serve as a lapping lift and a transit lift, although it won’t be completely redundant to the Independence SuperChair. You’ll still have to use the Independence SuperChair when starting out of the Peak 7 base area, as well as if you’re doing laps on Pioneer, Swan City, and Fort Mary B.
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One thing that will interest me is how they’ll thread the lift through the gap between the Independence SuperChair’s drive terminal and the Pioneer Crossing restaurant, since that’s where the trailhead for the runs to the north of the lift is located. This mostly is with regards to tower placement. (I don’t know if they’ll do offset towers or a portal tower or something)
The blueprints also show the lift shacks, which being placed on the north side of the line seem to indicate the lift will be an anticlockwise lift, instead of clockwise like the other lifts in this part of the mountain. Which if turns out to be the case will make it only one of two anticlockwise high speed quads on the mountain besides only the Peak 8 SuperConnect (the Colorado SuperChair and Falcon SuperChairs were anticlockwise lifts too when they were high speed quads, and their high speed six pack replacements are also anticlockwise).
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The way Zendo and Kensho chairs were installed were WAAY different from the Breck master plan… anyone know why? Both were originally gonna be six packs (instead of just Kensho) and Zendo was farther up the mountain. Here’s the link: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3799652.pdf
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Well, I think the reason it was implemented differently was because Breck’s people realized that the original plans would’ve put too much traffic on the Independence SuperChair. Per that map (on page 134), “Proposed Peak 6 Lift A” is what ultimately became the Kensho SuperChair. “Proposed Peak 6 Lift B” would’ve served intermediate terrain on Peak 6 1/2 as well as be the means of reaching the Kensho SuperChair, accessible by taking a cutoff from Monte Cristo.
But therein lies the problem: the proposed “Lift B” wouldn’t be accessible from Peak 8’s existing lifts. To that end, it seems like Breck’s plan for mitigating that issue was that they were going to shorten the Rocky Mountain SuperChair by 1,700 feet, with the bottom terminal being moved uphill to about where tower 5 is. Taking its place coming out of Peak 8 base would be a high speed six pack beginning at the Rocky Mountain SuperChair’s bottom terminal but running up Northstar and ending where Claimjumper diverges from Lower Forget Me Not, for the purposes of eliminating the Columbine traverse as well as providing access over to the Peak 6 ingress lift via another traverse.
I think they must have realized that the north Peak 8 high speed six pack wouldn’t really get much in the way of lapping traffic, as the only runs you would’ve been able to lap from it would be Northstar and Claimjumper. So Breck changed things on that front and chose to keep the Rocky Mountain SuperChair unchanged, since you can lap five runs (Rounder’s, Little Johnny, Duke’s, Northstar and Claimjumper) from it.
They also may have realized that the Peak 6 1/2 high speed six pack was going to put too much strain on the Independence SuperChair, which was going to receive a huge influx of traffic with the Peak 7 base project. So they redid the proposed Peak 6 ingress lift and made it so it would be accessible from the Rocky Mountain SuperChair directly without going through Peak 7 base, hence the construction of the Peak 6 Parkway from Pioneer directly over to Zendo.
Worth noting on this master plan is that the original plans for Pioneer Crossing would’ve put it at the top of Swan City, where it would’ve anchored a learning area with new magic carpets. The Independence SuperChair would’ve been modified to have a midway unload half-station between towers 10 and 11, in addition to the downhill extension at the bottom to incorporate it into the Peak 7 base area.
Also on this master plan was a proposed cabriolet in the Lift 7 learning area, as well as another one on Peak 9 running on the original Quicksilver Quad lift line from the Village base up to the bottom of Lift A.
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Looking at that older Breck master plan, the only lifts out of that master plan that have been constructed have been the construction of the Kensho SuperChair and upgrading the Colorado SuperChair to a high speed six pack. The upgrade of the Falcon SuperChair to a high speed six pack isn’t on their agenda. The other lift proposals are ones that just haven’t been implemented for one reason or another.
* The upgrade of Lift A to a high speed quad with a midway unload turn station at the existing midway unload seems like a doable project that would make for a smooth progression from beginner to intermediate terrain, with Quicksilver Super6 being for beginners starting out, the upgraded Lift A being for advanced beginners, and those advanced beginners moving over to the Mercury SuperChair once they’re ready for blue trails.
* The upgrade of Lift C to a high speed quad would certainly siphon traffic away from the Beaver Run and Mercury SuperChairs, and having it run daily would make it so that beginner and intermediate skiers visiting during non-busy times and who aren’t up to using Frosty’s Freeway to Lift E won’t have to traverse on the Sawmill Catwalk.
* Lift 6 was proposed to be upgraded to a high speed quad with 1,800 pph. It would start in the same location as the current lift, but end a little higher up in the Imperial Bowl.
* This master plan proposes that Lift E be extended uphill to the treeline to provide an in-bounds expansion to the Peak 9 north face. I don’t know how Breck was going to do this. I’m guessing at the time, they planned on extending Lift E using parts and chairs from Lifts C and 6.
* The original plans for the Peak 8 base area superchairs are really baffling. I think it would’ve been a mistake to shorten the Rocky Mountain SuperChair to begin at tower 5, as the lift’s only purpose would be for doing laps on Rounders, Little Johnny and Duke’s Run without always traversing from the Colorado SuperChair. While the proposed high speed six pack from Peak 8 base to the top of Claimjumper wouldn’t have gotten much repeat traffic and would primarily be used by people accessing the T-Bar or Peaks 7 and 6. It’s best that they just left the Rocky Mountain SuperChair alone.
* The Peak 6 1/2 six pack that was retooled into Zendo was planned the way it was since Breck needed to work around that private land parcel in the middle of the expansion area. It should be noted that even so, there was a proposal to just have a single lift, starting where Zendo begins, having a mid-load and turn station at Horizon hut, then running to the top of Peak 6. They split that into the two lifts we have today because of the differing traffic patterns, Zendo being an access lift people only will ride once, and the Kensho SuperChair being something people lap at least two or three times.
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Looks like both lifts could be getting installed at McCoy Park after all….
“McCoy Park at Beaver Creek – This significant terrain expansion project – which will be served by two new chairlifts including a four-person, high-speed lift – will provide a rare beginner and intermediate bowl experience in one of the most idyllic settings in Colorado. The project, with its highly accessible, family-friendly learning terrain, received approval from the United States Forest Service last year and will be completed in time for the 2020/21 ski season.”
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Might be a good idea, since that area might need an extra lift for egress.
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Confirmed – two new lifts at McCoy Park
https://www.beavercreek.com/explore/mccoy-park.aspx
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This will be Beaver Creek’s first fixed grip quad and first new fixed grip lift to not be a relocated lift since…I think the resort’s opening.
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Glad to see it is back to two lifts. As recently as last week, the map on that page showed only one lift.
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I think the purpose of the egress fixed grip quad is to eliminate the amount of catwalk traversing needed if one is headed to Bachelor Gulch or Arrowhead after they’re finished in McCoy Park. Those heading to Beaver Creek Mountain, Larkspur Bowl or Strawberry Park can exit via crossover from the McCoy Park Express or via the egress lift.
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I might have missed it, but is there a long-term plan to replace/expand the Candy Cabin at the intersection of Strawberry Park, the Upper BC Mtn Express and the new McCoy Park egress lift? Seems that it would fill a pretty big gap for a full food service option between the base/Talon’s and the Bachelor Gulch area, particularly with all the new family traffic we’ll see up there after this expansion.
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No love for California again??
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Vail’s lack of Tahoe investment is absurd. Alterra has been investing in Squaw Alpine and there is a decent chance the California Express Gondola clears all regulatory hurdles and is greenlit for this upcoming summer. Enough people have to defect to Ikon for Vail to realize their blunder and start investing.
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Yeah that’s a bummer. I was really hoping for something new in Tahoe. I think Northstar is fine. Heavenly could use an egress lift from powder bowl to the top of the gondola when sky express goes down. However, I was really hoping they would upgrade Sunrise at Kirkwood to an HSQ. They could easily re-use the old lift to build the Thimble Peak Chair on the master plan. This would be a big step for Kirkwood. Sadly I think Kirkwood is too off the grid to see any love from Vail. Maybe that’s for the best.
Original Master Plan: http://www.evangoldin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kirkwood-ski-resort-development-plan-map.pdf
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Anyone have link to the Heavenly master plan? Also what about mammoth? Canyon and Broadway Express NEED to get upgraded to six packs-capacity for those chairs is currently at its limit.
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Although Mammoth is not owned by Vail. I think this summer Broadway is getting upgraded to a six pack.
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16 is set for an upgrade this summer. And honestly, I’d rather see an upgrade to 2 than 1, as it’s a lot more essential to getting across the mountain, and the old 2 can be used to upgrade 12, 14, or 25. 16 can be used for parts on 1 in the interim.
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Tahoe Regional Planning Agency (TRPA) 2007: http://www.trpa.org/wp-content/uploads/MPA-07-COMPILED-DOCUMENT.pdf
TRPA 2018: http://www.trpa.org/wp-content/uploads/Heavenly-MMP-Annual-Report-2017-W-Appendices-reduced.pdf
US Forest Service (USFS) 2017: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd564877.pdf
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Danny linked below to what seems like the latest MDP from 2007. It’s light on anything interesting, and bereft of any maps/visualization, which is unfortunate. The 2017 docs don’t tell us anything.
Basically, there is no evidence in the public record of what the current plans are for Heavenly.
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Having been stuck on the Sky chair twice last year long enough to get handed a free day pass at the top due to mechanicals, that is my top choice for a new Tahoe lift. Built in 1992, it’s 27 years old now. A 6-pack makes sense there, as long as they don’t space the chairs out really far making for no capacity increase. I never understood why they run Tamarack that way.
Kirkwood does need an upgrade on chair 4, but it needs a lot of things and I don’t think the numbers are there for Vail to invest unfortunately. Seems like their plan is to invest in the big money makers and let the rest languish.
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The idea of replacing Peru Express seems off and the lift barely gets any skiers except when it’s for getting to Area 51 lift.
What I think they should do is replace the terminal with UNI-G, and add new line, grips for Peru Express.
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There must be more to this story. Peru replacement wasn’t on the master plan. Either something is wrong with the lift and requires urgent replacement or they have a reason to believe more skiers with start their day there in the immediate future.
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If I had a guess, they are abandoning the Argentine two-stage detachable quad idea, which makes sense given the large cost associated with a lift of that nature.
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I think Argentine upgrade would work if it were a direct Mountain House to Summit House lift, running direct with no midstation, more or less running on the same line as the old St’s John lift.
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I agree, although I would make it a gondola so they could also use it in the event they need the second base but are in a low snow year or warm period and they cannot open trails down to Mountain House.
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I would arguably go for a chondola.
Looking at a map, a lift running on the Saint’s John lift line but starting at Mountain House, with no midstation of any sort, would be about 1.78 miles long, and start from a point about 430 feet east of the existing Argentine’s loading area.
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They are moving kids ski school to Mountain House for 2020-2021. Keystone may have wanted to have the extra uphill capacity in the morning when all the kids are at the base and a more comfortable lift might be nice for them as well. Rumor has it that the current building at River Run will be torn down at the end of this winter and a new hotel will be built there and will go into the parking lot next to it.
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That is correct, Vail sold the land earlier this year.
https://www.summitdaily.com/news/keystone-resorts-honki-dori-parking-lot-sold-to-developers-with-big-designs/
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Which to a degree makes sense since the Discovery / Checkerboard double chairlift exists right there and is designed as a learning lift.
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I do agree that I rarely make use of the Peru Express when visiting Keystone, and that’s with regularly starting at Mountain House.
As a trail map shows, it doesn’t have much terrain that it services. I would also say that the fact that from Mountain House, you have to take two lifts to get to the Summit House may also be what sends more people to River Run (on top of River Run having the gondola). Which is something I actually like because then I get more vertical feet on EpicMix.
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I was all for replacing Peru lift earlier, but now, it seems pointless. I ski mostly at Keystone and I start almost every day at Mountain House. Peru moves people up the hill and fast. Capacity is fine on the lift and I don’t usually spend much time in line (at most 15 minutes). Not many skiers lap the lift, and the lift’s only purpose is to get people on the hill in the morning and for some its to lap the terrain park with out having to sit on the slow A51 lift. I agree with the speculation that something is wrong with Peru lift. I would hope that Vail saved some parts from the old Montezuma Lift to help maintain Peru. I’d say it has another 10 years left in it. If there is a capacity issue, Vail should just add some chairs. I bet they have some from the old Montezuma Lift sitting in a boneyard.
In my opinion, replacing Argentine with a chondola and extending it up to Mountain House would be a better idea. It would provide the kids ski school with some type of gondola and it would relieve a lot of traffic on the Peru Express and the River Run gondola. And if there is a problem in future years with Peru, Keystone can just run Peru on weekends and holidays. Argentine Chondola is still not needed for a while. Vail should have replaced Wayback with a high speed quad or done the Outback surface lift.
But Peru will be replaced and we can’t do anything to change Vail’s mind now. Maybe we can hope they’ll cut a trail from top of Peru lift to the base of North Peak.
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Cutting a trail from the A-51 park over to North Peak would be a bit complicated as that would entail a cat-track of about 1.5 miles across steep side-hill.
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Next time someone rides Ruby look left at all the burn piles. It’s not just beetle kill there are healthy trees in there and it looks wide enough like they cut a new run.
No idea how they would keep snow on it considering how hard a time they have with diamond back and Mozart.
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What about Attitash? Attitash peak desperately needs a high speed lift to replace the ancient, slow and unreliable summit triple.
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Think about it from Vail’s standpoint. Do they really want to invest in a somewhat unpopular mountain in the middle of New Hampshire, or do they want to invest in Okemo where it is a bigger and much more popular mountain that they would see a return on investment from? They’re going to choose the one with a return investment. I like cooperations like Alterra that invest in all of their mountains and don’t just have “feeder” mountains, but Vail isn’t that way, and for a good reason. They have a business strategy that is very successful for them, so they’re going to keep it that way.
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Then Vail could’ve not bought Peak.
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It’s not like Peak had imminent plans to replace the triple either…
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Not sure I understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the lack of big new plans to invest in the Peak Resorts locations. That deal closed Sept 24, and given that Peak was broke and therefore was unlikely to have any major investments in the pipeline for the winter, it’s not realistic to expect that Vail would be in position to announce something this quickly.
As I mentioned up thread, because of the timing of that deal, I would not be at all surprised if we see a little more activity than normal from Vail in that March/April window, particularly if it’s a good snow year or if new information emerges (e.g. Challenger at Mt. Snow is compromised in some way). Attitash is a harder one b/c Peak just dumped a six figure sum of money into rebuilding that machine, so the bar is higher for ripping it out so quickly. Nonetheless, I’m sure that triple could be put to good use somewhere else in the Vail empire.
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While Peaks sure was broke, they were still doing capex expenditures this past summer and at a far far greater rate than Vail has done at their eastern resorts.
Examples:
This summer: 2 new snowmaking trails at Mt. Snow and refresh of D-Lift at Hunter.
Last summer: Hunter North expansion: 5 trails + glades (most of which Vail took off the map) + HS6 + associated snowmaking.
Looking to Vail, they haven’t put a penny into any of their eastern or midwestern resorts — other than buying new number decals for upping prices to exorbitant amounts — until this Okemo announcement. All money flows west.
A broke company can reinvest in itself yet Vail won’t.
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@bobbysmith Vail did invest at their Midwest resort Wilmot. Buying three new Doppelmayr quads and renovating the base lodge.
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Plus three new lifts at Mt. Brighton.
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@Bobby Smith – I would submit that their capital heavy approach is exactly why they were laboring under a large debt load and had to put themselves up for sale. They spent 17% and 25% of revenues on capex the last 2 years, compared to less than 10% at Vail. One is growing and thriving. The other is no longer a thing and all the people who ran it are looking for a job.
Which model do you think is more sustainable?
Regardless, it wouldn’t make sense for Vail to announce a bunch of new projects 2 months after they bought the company. Not nearly enough time to assess what they have and take a fresh look at needs going forward. As indicated by the fact that they laid off everyone at Peak’s HQ, it’s clear they don’t quite value the judgment of the decision-makers on that front.
I think you have a fair point on Stowe and, to a lesser extent, Sunapee. I think we’ll see much more activity at the former Peak resorts come this time next year. With a full year of operations under its belt, I would be disappointed is we saw any less than $20-30M in capex for the former Peak resorts in future years.
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exactly. They want to go over the plans very carefully, and perhaps not even in the end of march update give plans. Even when they bought whistler it was at least a year before they spent a dime on anything, including switching IT systems over etc. Peak resorts will very much be “steady away” this season, with the possible only change being RTP software linking databases in the back end to let epic pass skiers go direct to lift.
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The Peak 7 infill lift will be about 5,300 to 5,400 feet long, whereas the Peru Express is 6,213 feet long.
While it is plausible that the lift could be reused at Breck, I also must point out that Breck has been very much a Leitner-Poma loyal customer since the original Colorado SuperChair was built.
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Anyone got a master plan doc for mammoth or june?
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Although this seems like a stupid question, can it be possible if Vail could replace Independence chairlift by a Chondola? I mean the lift itself is suffering from capacity and the new HSQ will be placed higher away from the Peak 7 base.
Basically, it means there will be more people to get uphill. But then Breck will have to add a lodge on top of Peak 7.
I think this idea that I wrote is terrible.
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Breck already built a new restaurant at the top of the Independence Superchair in 2016 with Pioneer Crossing.
Also, the infill high speed quad will be REMOVING traffic from the Independence Superchair, as Peak 6 traffic that originally used it to go to Peak 8 and points south will now use the infill lift. So will lap traffic on Monte Cristo, Angel’s Rest and Lincoln Meadows.
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One thing that intrigues me about the Peak 7 infill is what they’ll do with regards to threading the gap between the Independence SuperChair and Pioneer Crossing. I don’t know if Breck wants a tower tube in that space or they’ll maybe need an offset tower like this…
…to thread this gap:
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While I’m no engineer, what if they made a tall break over right before Pioneer Crossing like near the sign? It would have to be higher than the Independence Chair. If it’s too tall, they can put a depression tower right before the station. Thoughts?
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Looking at the map again, the top terminal for the infill lift is going to be uphill of the Independence SuperChair, obviously so that there’s less mingling of traffic between the two unloading lifts. The second to last tower before the top will probably be about where that trail sign for Monte Cristo is in the picture, though there may also be a tower positioned such that Breck can attach that yellow “Welcome to Peak 7” sign that greets skiers about to start down the trail.
Wind exposure will be a big problem on the upper section of the lift line, something I can testify to as the Independence SuperChair has a lot of exposure on the upper portion of the lift line.
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Also, Deer Valley threaded Silver Strike into the already crowded summit of Flagstaff Mountain, so threading a quad like this through that narrow gap wouldn’t be too difficult:
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Breckenridge just posted a picture to their Twitter page showing what their high speed quad will look like on a trail map:
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I really hope they come up with a new name for the new lift. Maybe they do something like the Pioneer SuperChair or the Meadows SuperChair. Any other ideas?
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I don’t think they’re gonna call it the ‘Cucumber SuperChair’ even though Cucumber Gulch is nearby.
Maybe the Quandary SuperChair or Hoosier SuperChair (after the names of nearby mountain peaks).
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Definitely looks like the unload station will be on that hill above pioneer crossing/independence superchair.
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That will certainly do wonders for minimizing congestion.
In fact, I’m starting to suspect that some of the traffic traveling from the Rocky Mountain SuperChair to Peak 6 via the Zendo Chair might consider using this high speed quad and the Wanderlust catwalk instead, given how slow the Zendo Chair is (it has a ride time of seven minutes for a lift that’s only 2,582 feet long. And that snail’s pace of about 370 fpm really shows when one gets on the Kensho SuperChair right afterwards, as that lift covers 5,902 feet – 2.3 times the length of the Zendo Chair – in just 6 to 6.5 minutes depending on whether the lift is running at 1,000 or 900 fpm.)
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Perisher in Australia has lodged a DA for a new detachable 6 replacing a double and a triple. My guess is construction this time next year.
http://www.majorprojects.planning.nsw.gov.au/index.pl?action=view_job&job_id=10115
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Which lifts would the six pack replace?
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The Mt perisher double and triple chairs. From the rendering on the application it looks to be a D – Line.
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Do you think it’s possible that Vail would re use the old High Meadow Lift for the McCoy Park egress lift?
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I think Beaver Creek is more likely to build the egress lift up from scratch, with Doppelmayr building both. Given Beaver Creek’s emphasis on a luxury experience, I’d say they’ll want the egress lift to have footrests just like the main McCoy Park Express.
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Are there any lifts in North America that run regularly at 1200 fpm? Also what are the chances of Mammoth, Vail/BC/Copper, or Park City getting a D-Line?
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I think it’s worth bringing a photo over from the Upper Beaver Creek Mountain Express lift’s gallery to show off the geography of McCoy Park and where everything will be in relation to one another.
The upper terminal of the McCoy Park Express will be on the top of that hill that’s just to the left of tower 23.
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